I was reading around the community, specifically in a recent topic on our fellow programming website Omnimaga, and I noticed a lot of vitriol directed at the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition. To date, I have heard reactions ranging from my own (enthusiastic) to lukewarm and ambivalent, but I didn't realize that some programmers see it as "over-rated junk", and others counter that our dear Casio Prizm is "nothing but over-rated junk". I respect the opinions of the programmers involved, but it seems to me that both the Casio Prizm and the TI-84 Plus C Silver Edition are solid, powerful calculators that excel at what they're designed to do: math. Both graph in color, both have lots of statistics tools, both can manipulate lists, matrices, complex numbers, and more. I think we all know how I feel about the TI-Nspire, even though my complaints have been reduced by the addition of Lua programming on the TI-Nspire. Do any of you have concerns about the TI-84+CSE as a programming tool (or otherwise)? Let's have some civil, intelligent debate.
I think a lot of people are getting annoyed that a graphing calculator costs as much as it does today as it did 6 years ago. Working in retail, I hear this commonly as well. When I try to upsale people to a graphing calculator - not for company profits, mind you, but for the added benefits and likely future needs - a lot of people are perfectly content purchasing a scientific or an engineering calculator. Those who have to buy a graphing calculator, aren't too pleased. I hear stories about the cost of TVs going down while the graphing calculator is still the same price as it was when they were in high school.
Not to mention that the education curriculum doesn't have the speed to adopt a new calculator, and if you're like the public schools in my city there's no funding to purchase books for an updated curriculum. I'm not saying that every math-related textbook can't be used with a Casio Prizm or the TI-84+CSE, but there are text books with screen shots and calculator specific tutorials - I wasn't able to find any for this post but I'll keep looking.
Looking forward, if the new calculator can't hold a distinct advantage over its predecessor people aren't going to buy it. Currently, the TI-84+SE is being sold for around $125USD. The Color will be sold for, let's say around, $140USD, here's hoping that the 83+/84+/SE gets a price cut. If it does, more people will buy graphing calculators but it won't be the TI-84+CSE. If I were to try to sell someone on the Color I'd point out that they'd be able to graph in color and not have to rely on a dotted, dashed or solid line when graphing multiple equations. I'm not even going to mention the background picture graphing because, really, whats a real world use of that? Even after this lame sales pitch - because no (math) student cares about RAM and other hardware - they'd still purchase the old dinosaur that is the TI-83+.
I'd really love to hear TIs' reasoning behind a color calculator - other than "Casio has one! " - and why it's so much. Though, if I were to gander a guess on the latter it's because SAT and ACT qualifications aren't like a free EPA rating and are, in fact, a bit pricey so that cost is passed onto the consumer.
Extrapolating from my hypothesis above, our TI-83+ family community will likely increase but the TI-84+CSE will have a slow adoption. Only the teachers and students who really want it and the programmers who want a new toy to meddle with will buy it. I think TI is shooting themselves in the foot with the Color calculator that's superbly limited and just about less than adequate. If they wanted to impress people and encourage adoption, they'd release it for an insanely competitive price of around $100 or up the ante with the hardware. Nonetheless, it's extremely hard to sell someone on a calculator that costs over a 100, especially to a college student or a high school parent; teachers are a bit easier, however.
tl;dr: There won't be a huge difference one way or the other because the adoption will be too low to actually have an affect. On anything. Except perhaps the price if TI is smart.
Regarding sales, we only sell the Casio Prizm during the "Back to School" season. I'm sure it's year round else where but no one comes in asking/looking/longing for it. I assume it'll be the same thing for the TI Color.
Not to mention that the education curriculum doesn't have the speed to adopt a new calculator, and if you're like the public schools in my city there's no funding to purchase books for an updated curriculum. I'm not saying that every math-related textbook can't be used with a Casio Prizm or the TI-84+CSE, but there are text books with screen shots and calculator specific tutorials - I wasn't able to find any for this post but I'll keep looking.
Looking forward, if the new calculator can't hold a distinct advantage over its predecessor people aren't going to buy it. Currently, the TI-84+SE is being sold for around $125USD. The Color will be sold for, let's say around, $140USD, here's hoping that the 83+/84+/SE gets a price cut. If it does, more people will buy graphing calculators but it won't be the TI-84+CSE. If I were to try to sell someone on the Color I'd point out that they'd be able to graph in color and not have to rely on a dotted, dashed or solid line when graphing multiple equations. I'm not even going to mention the background picture graphing because, really, whats a real world use of that? Even after this lame sales pitch - because no (math) student cares about RAM and other hardware - they'd still purchase the old dinosaur that is the TI-83+.
I'd really love to hear TIs' reasoning behind a color calculator - other than "Casio has one! " - and why it's so much. Though, if I were to gander a guess on the latter it's because SAT and ACT qualifications aren't like a free EPA rating and are, in fact, a bit pricey so that cost is passed onto the consumer.
Extrapolating from my hypothesis above, our TI-83+ family community will likely increase but the TI-84+CSE will have a slow adoption. Only the teachers and students who really want it and the programmers who want a new toy to meddle with will buy it. I think TI is shooting themselves in the foot with the Color calculator that's superbly limited and just about less than adequate. If they wanted to impress people and encourage adoption, they'd release it for an insanely competitive price of around $100 or up the ante with the hardware. Nonetheless, it's extremely hard to sell someone on a calculator that costs over a 100, especially to a college student or a high school parent; teachers are a bit easier, however.
tl;dr: There won't be a huge difference one way or the other because the adoption will be too low to actually have an affect. On anything. Except perhaps the price if TI is smart.
Regarding sales, we only sell the Casio Prizm during the "Back to School" season. I'm sure it's year round else where but no one comes in asking/looking/longing for it. I assume it'll be the same thing for the TI Color.
comicIDIOT wrote:
I think a lot of people are getting annoyed that a graphing calculator costs as much as it does today as it did 6 years ago. Working in retail, I hear this commonly as well. When I try to upsale people to a graphing calculator - not for company profits, mind you, but for the added benefits and likely future needs - a lot of people are perfectly content purchasing a scientific or an engineering calculator. Those who have to buy a graphing calculator, aren't too pleased. I hear stories about the cost of TVs going down while the graphing calculator is still the same price as it was when they were in high school.
Well, it's no secret that TI sells their calculators at a huge markup, but the charitable argument is that they're charging for the operating system and all of the professional development they do. Amusingly, a class set of 10 TI-73's is $660 in Vernier's catalog, while a class set of TI-83 Plus calculators is $980. As BrandonW demonstrated with Chameleon, the TI-73 and TI-83 Plus use identical hardware, so that $32 difference is going towards the operating system, documentation and features, or simple markup because it's a more popular and outwardly "powerful" calculator.
Quote:
Not to mention that the education curriculum doesn't have the speed to adopt a new calculator, and if you're like the public schools in my city there's no funding to purchase books for an updated curriculum. I'm not saying that every math-related textbook can't be used with a Casio Prizm or the TI-84+CSE, but there are text books with screen shots and calculator specific tutorials - I wasn't able to find any for this post but I'll keep looking.
Unfortunately, the Casio Prizm is still lacking a lot of documentation, and no math books that I know of discuss it directly. I say unfortunately because I think the Casio Prizm was the start of something great with Casio, but they just don't have the momentum to give it the wide acceptance that it needs. One of the nice things about the TI-84+CSE (math-wise) is that you can type in the same things you could type on a TI-84+SE and get the same result; it just looks a little different. In other words, you can get away with using a TI-83 Plus/TI-84 Plus book for the CSE; you just need to think a bit. For example, I'm working on threading new TI-84+CSE screenshots throughout my latest book-in-progress, but I'll assume that TI-84+CSE users can more or less follow along with the TI-83+/TI-84+ explanations.
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Looking forward, if the new calculator can't hold a distinct advantage over its predecessor people aren't going to buy it.
I think the simple fact that it has a shiny color screen is going to make a lot of lay users (ie, parents) think it's a big step up from the previous calculators, even though the internal hardware is ironically identical. This is good and bad for us. Good in that they'll think it's more "modern", and we'll continue to have calculators to code for. Bad because unless parents and students and teachers start complaining about the slightly sluggish menus, TI will have little impetus to continue improving the model. A separate but not at all orthogonal problem is that (I hope in the very, very far future), I think we will sadly reach a time where ETS and teachers start to cave on the use of smartphones/tablets, and graphing calculators may slowly become irrelevant. I know that would/will be a very sad day for us.
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I'd really love to hear TIs' reasoning behind a color calculator - other than "Casio has one! " - and why it's so much.
Actually, I think the average consumer would see the $125 TI-84+SE side-by-side with the $130 TI-84+CSE and think the opposite: "wow, what a bargain for the shiny (fast!) color calculator!".
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Regarding sales, we only sell the Casio Prizm during the "Back to School" season. I'm sure it's year round else where but no one comes in asking/looking/longing for it. I assume it'll be the same thing for the TI Color.
I'm sad to hear that.
Regarding parents buying the TI Color because the color, high density, display makes it appear better. You're right and they'll likely ask "Is it better?" Thinking from a student perspective, I'll say that it's marginally better but there's nothing else that's entirely new. But it's also a marginally higher price so I could likely get them into buying the TI Color because it'll help differentiate equations on the graph.
And I'll feel this way until I get my hands on one. I'll likely purchase one, yes; after all, my biggest web draw is Cemetech!
I think it's too early to say if the TI Color will be good or bad for the Community. Surely, people out there will be sold on the fact that the color screen makes it better, and those are the people that sheepishly buy new Apple devices every year. If TI was smart, there's far more to this calculator than they're letting on. It may not be on-calc features but perhaps the ability to integrate with new, educational, tools. But, like most educational industries things will be slow and the current tools out there won't work with the new tool the company wants everyone to adopt (unless TI was already smart and made the old tools, namely the TI-Presenter.)
But my assumption and stance will continue to be that the TI Color will see a slow adoption and community growth. As times goes, we'll see new and old coders arrive to create and learn but the acceptance into the community looks grim with the current hardware because no one will be saying "Wow! Look at what it can do!"
And I'll feel this way until I get my hands on one. I'll likely purchase one, yes; after all, my biggest web draw is Cemetech!
I think it's too early to say if the TI Color will be good or bad for the Community. Surely, people out there will be sold on the fact that the color screen makes it better, and those are the people that sheepishly buy new Apple devices every year. If TI was smart, there's far more to this calculator than they're letting on. It may not be on-calc features but perhaps the ability to integrate with new, educational, tools. But, like most educational industries things will be slow and the current tools out there won't work with the new tool the company wants everyone to adopt (unless TI was already smart and made the old tools, namely the TI-Presenter.)
But my assumption and stance will continue to be that the TI Color will see a slow adoption and community growth. As times goes, we'll see new and old coders arrive to create and learn but the acceptance into the community looks grim with the current hardware because no one will be saying "Wow! Look at what it can do!"
I personally see hopes in the 84 Plus C Silver Edition regarding programming in the way that:
-TI-BASIC will still allow your usual RPG or ASCII action game where only 1-3 characters move at once on the screen. Even graphical games might be possible
-ASM will still allow full speed action-packed side scrollers, tile-by-tile vertical scrolling, CaDan-like games, along with some 3D.
However, we are now severely limited when it comes to animated tilemaps, smooth scrolling vertically and moving very large sprites at high framerate. This is both bad and good in the way that it might not allow every type of game we saw on the TI-84 Plus to exist on the new calc, but the great part will be that the challenge of overcoming the extra limitations will make calc programming more entertaining.
NOTE: I hope that as many people (including Omni) buys the calc and program for it, although I think that some people will wait until we see promising game projects or releases before buying it.
The problem is that a lot of people missed the only ASM I/O program from Cemetech archives on Omni and they saw how slow the home screen scrolled, and of course there are the resident TI haters who still hold a grudge against the TI-Nspire (including one guy who used to ban every Nspire user from his forum) who are in small numbers but will put anti-Nspire/84C banners in their sigs.
Most people there seems to say they wanted the calc, but now they're not so sure anymore because they are disappointed that display is slower than on the TI-84 Plus. It will take a few ASM game and some good BASIC game releases to convince them now.
I just hope that the apparently slightly sluggish input on the home screen and the slow scrolling through menus won't cause the calc to get poor reviews among students and teachers, because that's the main source of new calculator coders and game fans.
-TI-BASIC will still allow your usual RPG or ASCII action game where only 1-3 characters move at once on the screen. Even graphical games might be possible
-ASM will still allow full speed action-packed side scrollers, tile-by-tile vertical scrolling, CaDan-like games, along with some 3D.
However, we are now severely limited when it comes to animated tilemaps, smooth scrolling vertically and moving very large sprites at high framerate. This is both bad and good in the way that it might not allow every type of game we saw on the TI-84 Plus to exist on the new calc, but the great part will be that the challenge of overcoming the extra limitations will make calc programming more entertaining.
NOTE: I hope that as many people (including Omni) buys the calc and program for it, although I think that some people will wait until we see promising game projects or releases before buying it.
The problem is that a lot of people missed the only ASM I/O program from Cemetech archives on Omni and they saw how slow the home screen scrolled, and of course there are the resident TI haters who still hold a grudge against the TI-Nspire (including one guy who used to ban every Nspire user from his forum) who are in small numbers but will put anti-Nspire/84C banners in their sigs.
Most people there seems to say they wanted the calc, but now they're not so sure anymore because they are disappointed that display is slower than on the TI-84 Plus. It will take a few ASM game and some good BASIC game releases to convince them now.
I just hope that the apparently slightly sluggish input on the home screen and the slow scrolling through menus won't cause the calc to get poor reviews among students and teachers, because that's the main source of new calculator coders and game fans.
As first mentioned in this topic by comicIDIOT, it's extremely annoying that price tags remain this high for such persistently underpowered hardware, compared to cheap ARM-based dev boards or even small tablets (Nexus 7 !) and smartphones, all of which are much more powerful than even the Nspire CX series.
It's usually forbidden to sell goods at a loss, for good reason; therefore, TI is not losing money when selling to teachers at reduced (near-halved) price tags. That's another way to state that consumers pay calculators (at least) twice what they should pay for them.
A 84+CSE should cost $35-$40, a 89T should cost about the same (better processor but older screen), and a CX CAS shouldn't cost more than $55.
It's usually forbidden to sell goods at a loss, for good reason; therefore, TI is not losing money when selling to teachers at reduced (near-halved) price tags. That's another way to state that consumers pay calculators (at least) twice what they should pay for them.
A 84+CSE should cost $35-$40, a 89T should cost about the same (better processor but older screen), and a CX CAS shouldn't cost more than $55.
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Co-maintainer of GCC4TI (GCC4TI online documentation), TIEmu and TILP.
Co-admin of TI-Planet.
KermMartian wrote:
Unfortunately, the Casio Prizm is still lacking a lot of documentation, and no math books that I know of discuss it directly. I say unfortunately because I think the Casio Prizm was the start of something great with Casio, but they just don't have the momentum to give it the wide acceptance that it needs. One of the nice things about the TI-84+CSE (math-wise) is that you can type in the same things you could type on a TI-84+SE and get the same result; it just looks a little different. In other words, you can get away with using a TI-83 Plus/TI-84 Plus book for the CSE; you just need to think a bit.
You can use the PRIZM exactly like the fx9860. And I have seen math books that support the 9860.
Quote:
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Looking forward, if the new calculator can't hold a distinct advantage over its predecessor people aren't going to buy it.
I think the simple fact that it has a shiny color screen is going to make a lot of lay users (ie, parents) think it's a big step up from the previous calculators, even though the internal hardware is ironically identical. This is good and bad for us. Well, my first calc was an fx9750GII, even though originally it was going to be a TI-84. That's because my dad did a lot of research and saw that the 84 simply wasn't worth the extra money.
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Wow. I'm sorry, but I was incredibly excited about both the Prizm and the CSE, but as the time went on before release, I found out that they simply weren't "all that." The least TI could've done was to make the CSE capable of displaying a whole screenfull of 16 bit color. It's got no faster processor to compensate for the large amount of other improvements made on it, and realistically they haven't upgraded either the flash memory or RAM to keep up. The Prizm... Is a locked up tight piece of iPod hardware. I'm sorry, but the ti calculators before these were the real deal because they were well-rounded. They may be pieces of junk, but they were pieces of junk we all liked and that were well-ronded.
Dapianokid wrote:
The Prizm... Is a locked up tight piece of iPod hardware.
Wait... what?
The Prizm isn't "locked up Apple-style" at all -- in fact, once the community discovered how to write add-ins for it, Casio basically turned a blind eye towards us so that we could continue doing so. If it were "locked up", they would have made an update that would have reverted the discovery's gains.
Kerm wrote:
I say unfortunately because I think the Casio Prizm was the start of something great with Casio, but they just don't have the momentum to give it the wide acceptance that it needs.
While flyingfisch is correct (I actually had a textbook or two that supported the fx9860, and everything was entirely compatible with the Prizm), it is rather unfortunate that Casio didn't use the opportunity they had to push the Prizm into the daylight in the United States; from what I've heard around the community at large, they did a better job with that overseas.
Dapianokid wrote:
The Prizm... Is a locked up tight piece of iPod hardware. I'm sorry, but the ti calculators before these were the real deal because they were well-rounded. They may be pieces of junk, but they were pieces of junk we all liked and that were well-ronded.
I hate to sound like a member of the 'TI Calculator Terminology Police,' but Dapianokid, do you mean NSpire as opposed to Prizm?
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WAti - WolframAlpha for TI-83+/84+ calculators
[img]http://www.cemetech.net/img/sigs/forumsig.php?uid=3503[/img]
ElectronicsGeek wrote:
Dapianokid wrote:
The Prizm... Is a locked up tight piece of iPod hardware. I'm sorry, but the ti calculators before these were the real deal because they were well-rounded. They may be pieces of junk, but they were pieces of junk we all liked and that were well-ronded.
I hate to sound like a member of the 'TI Calculator Terminology Police,' but Dapianokid, do you mean NSpire as opposed to Prizm?
Yes, really. Because casio has almost always supported their programming community.
The fx9860 had a casio-produced C SDK.
While the AFX never got an official SDK, Casio never tried to lock it down.
The classpad was never locked down.
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I lurk #cemetech, if you want to contact me that and email are probably best.
I lurk #cemetech, if you want to contact me that and email are probably best.
- Adriweb
- Expert (Posts: 703)
- Re: TI-84+CSE: Good or Bad for the Community?
- 23 Feb 2013 10:24:23 am
- Last edited by Adriweb on 23 Feb 2013 10:33:28 am; edited 1 time in total
KermMartian wrote:
others counter that our dear Casio Prizm is "nothing but over-rated junk".
When I wrote that, I was actually writign the exact same term as the person before, so there aren't really my words ,I was trying to make him understand that with invalid arguments, one can easily tell anything with not much sense or truth.
I actually later posted on Omnimaga and TI-Planet this, which sums up my opinion on the 84C, hopefully it's not very far from some of us here :
Quote:
Actually, I started to get used to the javascript emu, which made it even slower, sadly, so when I actually see it for real, it doesn't look so slow anymore
Of course, when put next to another z80 calc, it's clear that's it's slower.
However : (and don't get me wrong, I obviously think TI should have put a better CPU >.>, but that's my personal opinion) :
We are *used* to our other z80 and prizm/nspire/etc. So any comparison we make is kind of biased already.
The thing to see would be to make someone who's never used a graphing calc before try out the 84C, and ask him for any feedback, and that is in all the domains the calc is made for : math, programming features, color-screen, big screen, etc etc.
Then, I wouldn't know if the speed issue would really come first (or at all). Maybe the lack of CAS (yes, I am talking of someone who never used a graphing calc before, so....) would come first, but then we would explain him that's normal on this type of calc, and then maybe he would tell feedback about things we wouldn't even have though about ourselves, since we cannot speak as "new" users.
As you know, TI is insisting a lot on Math and Science etc., so if we consider that part for the 84C and as experimented-users, try to "ignore" the slowness issue, it will probably get the 84C to appear as the best non-Nspire calc out there. And that's because the reaction of the reviewer isn't focused on programming easeness etc. And obviously we, programmers, are at the opposite side, since a lot of us don't even use the calc mostly for math (we probably represent less than a few percents....) Any company (especially big ones) have to go with the majority, whether that's sad or good for its end-users. I guess that's why the 84C is seen as revolutionary to the math teachers I've talked with or heard, and that do not focus on programming with it.
(the best exampel they tell you is how you can differentiate the equations drawn on the graph screen, with the color, and how "beautiful" it is compared to older models. Of course, how can you even go against that argument with other calcs ?
In conclusion, it's all a matter of point of view, and that's pretty much unarguable.
My opinion again on this calc is not really interesting since I'm not a high-schooler anymore, and pretty much all the calcs I got don' get much attention nowadays, since I actually neither don't have much time to use them, nor my school allows any for exams. Sometimes I still use my Nspire CX CAS during lessons, for practical reaons, but that's all.
For me, if I'm asked whether I'd buy this calc, I'd probably say no because I don't *need* it. If I needed a calc and was looking for math, I'd seriously consider it (ignoring the Nspire series, again). As a programmer, I would probably lean towards an 84+ Pocket SE, *for now*. ; But as a "collector", I certainly can't wait to own a 84C, so....
Edit : Oops, I forgot to talk about the slowness impacting key responses issues : that's definitely a bad point. I have kind of 0 knowledge on ASM programing, but unless the skilled community programmers find a way to fix that, it's going to be a major problem with users who get used to the calc and start typing faster than what the calc can handle (and that's getting ridiculous...). But yet again, this is addressing a very minor percentage of all users TI's targeting..
Of course, when put next to another z80 calc, it's clear that's it's slower.
However : (and don't get me wrong, I obviously think TI should have put a better CPU >.>, but that's my personal opinion) :
We are *used* to our other z80 and prizm/nspire/etc. So any comparison we make is kind of biased already.
The thing to see would be to make someone who's never used a graphing calc before try out the 84C, and ask him for any feedback, and that is in all the domains the calc is made for : math, programming features, color-screen, big screen, etc etc.
Then, I wouldn't know if the speed issue would really come first (or at all). Maybe the lack of CAS (yes, I am talking of someone who never used a graphing calc before, so....) would come first, but then we would explain him that's normal on this type of calc, and then maybe he would tell feedback about things we wouldn't even have though about ourselves, since we cannot speak as "new" users.
As you know, TI is insisting a lot on Math and Science etc., so if we consider that part for the 84C and as experimented-users, try to "ignore" the slowness issue, it will probably get the 84C to appear as the best non-Nspire calc out there. And that's because the reaction of the reviewer isn't focused on programming easeness etc. And obviously we, programmers, are at the opposite side, since a lot of us don't even use the calc mostly for math (we probably represent less than a few percents....) Any company (especially big ones) have to go with the majority, whether that's sad or good for its end-users. I guess that's why the 84C is seen as revolutionary to the math teachers I've talked with or heard, and that do not focus on programming with it.
(the best exampel they tell you is how you can differentiate the equations drawn on the graph screen, with the color, and how "beautiful" it is compared to older models. Of course, how can you even go against that argument with other calcs ?
In conclusion, it's all a matter of point of view, and that's pretty much unarguable.
My opinion again on this calc is not really interesting since I'm not a high-schooler anymore, and pretty much all the calcs I got don' get much attention nowadays, since I actually neither don't have much time to use them, nor my school allows any for exams. Sometimes I still use my Nspire CX CAS during lessons, for practical reaons, but that's all.
For me, if I'm asked whether I'd buy this calc, I'd probably say no because I don't *need* it. If I needed a calc and was looking for math, I'd seriously consider it (ignoring the Nspire series, again). As a programmer, I would probably lean towards an 84+ Pocket SE, *for now*. ; But as a "collector", I certainly can't wait to own a 84C, so....
Edit : Oops, I forgot to talk about the slowness impacting key responses issues : that's definitely a bad point. I have kind of 0 knowledge on ASM programing, but unless the skilled community programmers find a way to fix that, it's going to be a major problem with users who get used to the calc and start typing faster than what the calc can handle (and that's getting ridiculous...). But yet again, this is addressing a very minor percentage of all users TI's targeting..
- flyingfisch
- Minor Calculator Deity (Posts: 1088)
- Re: TI-84+CSE: Good or Bad for the Community?
- 23 Feb 2013 10:30:49 am
adriweb wrote:
KermMartian wrote:
others counter that our dear Casio Prizm is "nothing but over-rated junk".
When I wrote that, I was actually writign the exact same term as the person before, so there aren't really my words ,I was trying to make him understand that with invalid arguments, oen can easily tell anything with no sense or truth.
I am sorry, I was a little immature when I wrote that. Though its not necessarily over-rated junk, i do think its over-priced and under-powered.
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I lurk #cemetech, if you want to contact me that and email are probably best.
flyingfisch wrote:
Though its not necessarily over-rated junk, i do think its over-priced and under-powered.
Well, we more or less all agree on that, but this is stil lvalid for most calcs out there anyway....
- flyingfisch
- Minor Calculator Deity (Posts: 1088)
- Re: TI-84+CSE: Good or Bad for the Community?
- 23 Feb 2013 10:52:17 am
adriweb wrote:
flyingfisch wrote:
Though its not necessarily over-rated junk, i do think its over-priced and under-powered.
Well, we more or less all agree on that, but this is stil lvalid for most calcs out there anyway....
I dont think so... the fx9750GII is a bargin... as well as most casio calcs. And at least casio doesn't sell their calcs for more than twice their worth.
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- KermMartian
- Site Admin (Posts: 64228)
- Re: TI-84+CSE: Good or Bad for the Community?
- 23 Feb 2013 10:55:02 am
adriweb wrote:
KermMartian wrote:
others counter that our dear Casio Prizm is "nothing but over-rated junk".
When I wrote that, I was actually writign the exact same term as the person before, so there aren't really my words ,I was trying to make him understand that with invalid arguments, one can easily tell anything with not much sense or truth.
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Actually, I started to get used to the javascript emu, which made it even slower, sadly, so when I actually see it for real, it doesn't look so slow anymore. Of course, when put next to another z80 calc, it's clear that's it's slower.
Indeed, I'm sadly working within the constraints of a limited language, the penalty for jsTIfied being able to run in almost any browser.
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However : (and don't get me wrong, I obviously think TI should have put a better CPU >.>, but that's my personal opinion) :
We are *used* to our other z80 and prizm/nspire/etc. So any comparison we make is kind of biased already.
The thing to see would be to make someone who's never used a graphing calc before try out the 84C, and ask him for any feedback, and that is in all the domains the calc is made for : math, programming features, color-screen, big screen, etc etc.
That's one of the several views I tried to take in my review: a student who had never used a graphing calculator before, as well as one transitioning from a TI-84+SE, and one accustomed to programming on the TI-84+SE.
We are *used* to our other z80 and prizm/nspire/etc. So any comparison we make is kind of biased already.
The thing to see would be to make someone who's never used a graphing calc before try out the 84C, and ask him for any feedback, and that is in all the domains the calc is made for : math, programming features, color-screen, big screen, etc etc.
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Then, I wouldn't know if the speed issue would really come first (or at all). Maybe the lack of CAS (yes, I am talking of someone who never used a graphing calc before, so....) would come first, but then we would explain him that's normal on this type of calc, and then maybe he would tell feedback about things we wouldn't even have though about ourselves, since we cannot speak as "new" users.
I agree, I don't think that the brand-new user might notice the speed as much. On the other hand, if he or she was accustomed to using smartphones and the like with very smooth scrolling and zooming, menus that you can watch render might seem antiquated.
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As you know, TI is insisting a lot on Math and Science etc., so if we consider that part for the 84C and as experimented-users, try to "ignore" the slowness issue, it will probably get the 84C to appear as the best non-Nspire calc out there. And that's because the reaction of the reviewer isn't focused on programming easeness etc. And obviously we, programmers, are at the opposite side, since a lot of us don't even use the calc mostly for math (we probably represent less than a few percents....) Any company (especially big ones) have to go with the majority, whether that's sad or good for its end-users. I guess that's why the 84C is seen as revolutionary to the math teachers I've talked with or heard, and that do not focus on programming with it.
Exactly. I'd say that the Prizm is a better calculator for programming: bigger, faster screen, faster processor, more RAM, more Flash, and easily-programmable in C. For math, the lack of documentation and publicity for the Prizm (at least stateside) has hurt it a lot. I know that the European situation is different: every day we have hundreds of Portuguese students searching for variations on "jogos calculadora Prizm" and ending up in the Cemetech archives.
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As a programmer, I would probably lean towards an 84+ Pocket SE, *for now*. ; But as a "collector", I certainly can't wait to own a 84C, so....
As a programmer, I think it's likely that I'll gradually put most of my TI-83+/TI-84+ projects to rest and focus on the TI-84+CSE, as I feel I've gotten somewhat bored of challenging the TI-83+/TI-84+'s capabilities.
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Edit : Oops, I forgot to talk about the slowness impacting key responses issues : that's definitely a bad point. I have kind of 0 knowledge on ASM programing, but unless the skilled community programmers find a way to fix that, it's going to be a major problem with users who get used to the calc and start typing faster than what the calc can handle (and that's getting ridiculous...). But yet again, this is addressing a very minor percentage of all users TI's targeting..
And this is one of the first issues I noticed trying to type TI-BASIC code. I had to cut my TI-BASIC speed down to about half, and this is being very rusty. Back in the day, I used to be able to type out TI-BASIC like a madman, and I would have been even more frustrated with the typing speed.
Thanks KermM for commenting
About that, I was sying it because I'm a TI-Basic programmer on the z80 platforms, and no ASM. If I were an ASM programmer on the z80 platform, I'll go buy it the second it gets released
KermMartian wrote:
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As a programmer, I would probably lean towards an 84+ Pocket SE, *for now*. ; But as a "collector", I certainly can't wait to own a 84C, so....
As a programmer, I think it's likely that I'll gradually put most of my TI-83+/TI-84+ projects to rest and focus on the TI-84+CSE, as I feel I've gotten somewhat bored of challenging the TI-83+/TI-84+'s capabilities.About that, I was sying it because I'm a TI-Basic programmer on the z80 platforms, and no ASM. If I were an ASM programmer on the z80 platform, I'll go buy it the second it gets released
Most people use a TI-84 Plus in my math/science classes, almost entirely due to its design. By tossing in a color screen, TI should make a lot of money and no longer have to pay for outdated screens. As I found, what the common user wants is a faster processor. However, the nSpire is a PITA to use IMHO, compared to the ill-fated TI-89 Titanium. It's also prohibitively expensive ($150 for the CX) compared to the $105 TI-84 Plus and the $80 Casio fx-9850G.
Comparing the graphing speed, the Casio is always the first calculator done graphing something, and the TI-86 is last. TI should set themselves a goal to have sin(x) graph at about 100 pixels per second, so that people don't have to wait so long to see results.
The rechargeable battery is a nice inclusion for the average user, but limits the lifetime of the device to a few years before a new battery needs to be bought. Considering TI-81s are still in use, the 84+C won't get the longevity praise older models once got. People don't like having to pay for new hardware anyways.
TI should be following Casio in using a fast processor, having plenty of RAM and Archive, and backlit screens for darkened rooms with projectors showing SmartView. I feel that color was just a ploy to prevent competition. It's as if they're listening to the community and users a lot less now than they did 15 years ago. People don't need to put pictures on the graph screen, then wait about a minute to see they typed an equation or graph range in wrong.
Edit: TI should focus on making a faster TI-68k model. The nSpire is slowly being forgotten, and 68k devices have more potential than TI might see. If they toss the V200's screen onto the TI-89 and add a backlight, they'd have one of my dream calcs. And from a programming view, the lack of the modulo function and the menu system on the 84+ series makes math programming more difficult. Dialogs or the TI-73's SetMenu( make input a lot easier.
Comparing the graphing speed, the Casio is always the first calculator done graphing something, and the TI-86 is last. TI should set themselves a goal to have sin(x) graph at about 100 pixels per second, so that people don't have to wait so long to see results.
The rechargeable battery is a nice inclusion for the average user, but limits the lifetime of the device to a few years before a new battery needs to be bought. Considering TI-81s are still in use, the 84+C won't get the longevity praise older models once got. People don't like having to pay for new hardware anyways.
TI should be following Casio in using a fast processor, having plenty of RAM and Archive, and backlit screens for darkened rooms with projectors showing SmartView. I feel that color was just a ploy to prevent competition. It's as if they're listening to the community and users a lot less now than they did 15 years ago. People don't need to put pictures on the graph screen, then wait about a minute to see they typed an equation or graph range in wrong.
Edit: TI should focus on making a faster TI-68k model. The nSpire is slowly being forgotten, and 68k devices have more potential than TI might see. If they toss the V200's screen onto the TI-89 and add a backlight, they'd have one of my dream calcs. And from a programming view, the lack of the modulo function and the menu system on the 84+ series makes math programming more difficult. Dialogs or the TI-73's SetMenu( make input a lot easier.
cvsoft wrote:
Most people use a TI-84 Plus in my math/science classes, almost entirely due to its design. By tossing in a color screen, TI should make a lot of money and no longer have to pay for outdated screens. As I found, what the common user wants is a faster processor. However, the nSpire is a PITA to use IMHO, compared to the ill-fated TI-89 Titanium. It's also prohibitively expensive ($150 for the CX) compared to the $105 TI-84 Plus and the $80 Casio fx-9850G.
I'm surprised to hear you say that the common user wants a faster processor. I mean, I know they probably would want "newer" hardware, which to computer users means a faster processor and more RAM, but I wouldn't expect the to have good reasons to actually use those faster processors.
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Comparing the graphing speed, the Casio is always the first calculator done graphing something, and the TI-86 is last. TI should set themselves a goal to have sin(x) graph at about 100 pixels per second, so that people don't have to wait so long to see results.
Sadly, the biggest lag is the tangle of code that is the equation parser. I'm actually continually surprised that it runs as fast as it does, after seeing from my work with AHelper just how much code that takes.
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The rechargeable battery is a nice inclusion for the average user, but limits the lifetime of the device to a few years before a new battery needs to be bought. Considering TI-81s are still in use, the 84+C won't get the longevity praise older models once got. People don't like having to pay for new hardware anyways.
I was just thinking that today. It'll be interesting to see in a year or a year and a half what students and teachers are saying about battery fatigue. Although I guess they've been dealing with that with the Nspire, and I haven't really heard too much complaining.
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TI should be following Casio in using a fast processor, having plenty of RAM and Archive, and backlit screens for darkened rooms with projectors showing SmartView. I feel that color was just a ploy to prevent competition. It's as if they're listening to the community and users a lot less now than they did 15 years ago. People don't need to put pictures on the graph screen, then wait about a minute to see they typed an equation or graph range in wrong.
At least on the surface, they're listening to us a whole lot more than they used to. The very fact that I've been able to open an honest dialog with them, even about a few of my thoughts on the Nspire, I think shows that they recognize some of our role in the TI-teacher-student-parent relationship. I agree that they're not focusing on us from a business standpoint, but it seems to me that they never have. Of course, I agree that they need to make the calculators more programmable to help teach programming, but it seems to me that the current speed and features fulfill the needs of a beginner programming tool.
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Edit: TI should focus on making a faster TI-68k model. The nSpire is slowly being forgotten, and 68k devices have more potential than TI might see. If they toss the V200's screen onto the TI-89 and add a backlight, they'd have one of my dream calcs. And from a programming view, the lack of the modulo function and the menu system on the 84+ series makes math programming more difficult. Dialogs or the TI-73's SetMenu( make input a lot easier.
That would be amazing, but I think it's a pipe dream. As far as I can tell, the TI-Nspire CX CAS has more or less entirely ended the life of the 68k line. Here's hoping TI proves me wrong! cvsoft wrote:
Edit: TI should focus on making a faster TI-68k model. The nSpire is slowly being forgotten, and 68k devices have more potential than TI might see. If they toss the V200's screen onto the TI-89 and add a backlight, they'd have one of my dream calcs. And from a programming view, the lack of the modulo function and the menu system on the 84+ series makes math programming more difficult. Dialogs or the TI-73's SetMenu( make input a lot easier.
Voyage 400, anybody?
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