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calc84maniac
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Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 770
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 Posted: 03 Nov 2008 08:01:23 am Post subject: |
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Slavery
Everybody agrees now that slavery is unfair and wrong. What kept it from being abolished for so long? Why wouldn't they admit it was wrong? Well, it was convenient.
Their lame excuse: Black people aren't really humans, so they don't get human rights.
Abortion
Why won't people admit it's wrong? It's obviously killing (or, if you prefer, preventing life). Well, it's convenient. People either don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child, or (depending on who the father is) they want to get out of the consequences of their sin.
Their lame excuse: Unborn babies aren't really humans, so they don't get human rights.
In both cases, the victims are unable to do anything about their dilemma. So, it is up to the people, anyone who wants freedom for everyone in this country, to act and take down abortion, just like we did for slavery (hopefully minus the whole "war" thing).
Comment away! Poke it with a pointy stick if you want to. |
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SonicBoom95
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Posts: 237
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 08:25:22 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, I think the argument for abortion is "They don't feel pain." But I digress, you make an excellent comparison. |
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benryves
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Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 564
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 09:08:51 am Post subject: |
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calc84maniac wrote: So, it is up to the people, anyone who wants freedom for everyone in this country, to act and take down abortion, just like we did for slavery (hopefully minus the whole "war" thing).[post="128426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] Doesn't that entirely depend on your definition of freedom? By "taking down" abortion you're reducing freedom. |
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thornahawk
μολών λαβέ
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 09:43:33 am Post subject: |
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"Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." ;)
thornahawk |
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Super Speler
Super Awesome Dude
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Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 1391
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 11:20:44 am Post subject: |
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| I don't really think that's a very fair comparison at all. I mean, slavery and abortion are completely different things. |
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calc84maniac
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Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 770
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 03:46:12 pm Post subject: |
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SonicBoom95 wrote: Actually, I think the argument for abortion is "They don't feel pain." But I digress, you make an excellent comparison.
[post="128427"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Well, I thought the whole argument was about when a fetus becomes a human. You know, the whole thing with inalienable rights, the first being "life". My standpoint is that they're human at conception (I mean, if you happened to look at their genetics/DNA or whatever, it would say that they're Homo Sapiens, unless I'm misinformed).
Super Speler wrote: I don't really think that's a very fair comparison at all. I mean, slavery and abortion are completely different things.
[post="128433"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Well, if they were the same thing, it would be pointless to make a comparison. 
Last edited by Guest on 03 Nov 2008 03:47:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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magicdanw
pcGuru()
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 1110
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 10:42:56 pm Post subject: |
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calc84maniac wrote: Everybody agrees now that slavery is unfair and wrong.[post="128426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] Um, no. Not everyone agrees that. calc84maniac wrote: People either don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child, or (depending on who the father is) they want to get out of the consequences of their sin.[post="128426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] Since when does bringing religion into a logical discussion lead to clarification? I assume you're talking about sex out of wedlock? Why is it a sin to have a baby, under any circumstances, if you believe the baby has a right to live? The sin causes beautiful life? Sigh...I don't get religion anymore... calc84maniac wrote: In both cases, the victims are unable to do anything about their dilemma.[post="128426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] No. In the case of slavery, the slaves said, "We're human beings, conscious and capable of thoughts and feelings." Then other people realized they were right. In the case of abortion, the fetus does not speak up. Know why? Because it's not conscious. It's lower than animals, which I don't believe should be killed. Before birth, especially during the first trimester or so, the fetus is not conscious enough to know it wants life, and the mother is obviously conscious enough to know that she can't deal with having a baby, and for her own wellbeing and mental health it's best to abort the pregnancy.
Last edited by Guest on 03 Nov 2008 10:44:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 03 Nov 2008 11:25:43 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: calc84maniac wrote: In both cases, the victims are unable to do anything about their dilemma.[post="128426"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] No. In the case of slavery, the slaves said, "We're human beings, conscious and capable of thoughts and feelings." Then other people realized they were right.
[post="128447"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
You know... I seem to remember plenty of slaves being chained together, or shot fleeing on 100 or 1000-mile escape routes. You make it all sound like writing the editor.
Some of the autistic, disabled, or severely injured could easily fit your definition of "unconscious" too. I don't think "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ends with citizens who can protest. And in totally practical terms: abortion is just such an unnecessarily barbaric way of dealing with the issue when we've got other options like female/male contraceptives, reversible/permanent sterilization, adoption, and emmigration (that wasn't a typo). Still, I have to admit anti-abortion is futile battle today because of the hilarious and tragic level of promiscuity in the culture.
Last edited by Guest on 03 Nov 2008 11:29:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bfr
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Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 108
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 02:06:20 pm Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: Some of the autistic, disabled, or severely injured could easily fit your definition of "unconscious" too. I don't think "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" ends with citizens who can protest. And in totally practical terms: abortion is just such an unnecessarily barbaric way of dealing with the issue when we've got other options like female/male contraceptives, reversible/permanent sterilization, adoption, and emmigration (that wasn't a typo). Still, I have to admit anti-abortion is futile battle today because of the hilarious and tragic level of promiscuity in the culture.
[post="128450"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
I was going to say something like that too. The unborn babies are probably going to become concious, just like how people in temporary comas become concious (and I don't think you would kill somebody who was temporarily on a coma?).
magicdanw wrote: Since when does bringing religion into a logical discussion lead to clarification? I assume you're talking about sex out of wedlock? Why is it a sin to have a baby, under any circumstances, if you believe the baby has a right to live? The sin causes beautiful life? Sigh...I don't get religion anymore...
I think he's talking about the "sin" to have sex unresponsively, knowing that you won't be able to take care of your baby (and will eventually kill your baby).
I'm still not really sure about whether abortion is OK or not, though (but I'm learning towards calc84maniac's side, as you can probably tell).
Last edited by Guest on 04 Nov 2008 02:07:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 06:39:09 pm Post subject: |
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| The only effect legislation against abortion would have is increase in crime and in sale of coat hangers. |
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nitacku
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Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 408
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 08:28:37 pm Post subject: |
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DarkerLine wrote: The only effect legislation against abortion would have is increase in crime and in sale of coat hangers.
[post="128465"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
It can be assumed that wire cutter and plier sales would also increase since they are complimentary goods to the coat hangers. Eventually, coat hanger prices will increase do to the higher demand, causing wire cutter and plier sales to then decrease due to cross elasticity of demand. It can also be said that the sale of coat hangers is directly proportional to the rate of crime. By taking into consideration the locations where crime is most prevalent, one can capitalize the market by opening specialized stores offering coat hangers, wire cutters and pliers. Due to the nature of the potential customers, selling beer and nail files would also be profitable. |
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JoostinOnline
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Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 559
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 08:56:01 pm Post subject: |
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magicdanw wrote: In the case of abortion, the fetus does not speak up. Know why? Because it's not conscious. It's lower than animals, which I don't believe should be killed.[post="128447"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] Why do you say that it isn't conscious? Just because an unborn baby is not as developed as we are, that says nothing about conciousness/having a soul. You and I are still developing. For example, the human brain does not reach its full potential until you are about 20, and the female reproductive system is not fully developed until she is in her teens. The list goes on and on. Can you really say that being less developed than someone else means you are less of a human? |
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magicdanw
pcGuru()
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Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 1110
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 09:49:23 pm Post subject: |
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| animals are conscious of pain. They strive to avoid it. They demonstrate a desire to remain alive. At the start of a pregnancy, a fetus does none of that. If you believe the mere potential to be alive gives it the right to life, then does masturbating kill potential babies? |
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thebetter1
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Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 86
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 10:06:23 pm Post subject: |
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magicdanw wrote: animals are conscious of pain. They strive to avoid it. They demonstrate a desire to remain alive. At the start of a pregnancy, a fetus does none of that. If you believe the mere potential to be alive gives it the right to life, then does masturbating kill potential babies?
[post="128470"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
I think it's fair to say that human rights only apply to humans who were once alive. Scientifically, the fetus is as alive as anyone else. A tree is alive even though it cannot feel pain. Reproductive material is alive, but it is part of the parent, so it is as alive as your arm. |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 10:50:33 pm Post subject: |
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| But it's not alive. (Early on in the pregnancy) it doesn't respond to stimuli and it can't survive on its own. |
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rcfreak0
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 354
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| Posted: 04 Nov 2008 11:39:57 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, before I add a new issue..
Abortion:
sure its bad, but what happened to people choice to decide? Sure yes, it could be viewed as murder, but really, let the lady decide, what if she got raped and wanted to get rid of the horrible memories of it, but if she has to carry a "rape baby", well thats not right either.
Slavery:
Its not right.Period.
New Issue:
Obama as president:
Why did we just elect someone who doesnt salute the flag, wont pledge alligence to the flag, has ties to terrorist, and is possibly a terrorist himself. sure maybe he has some good ideas, but really, why him?
--now time for me to go to bed...
Last edited by Guest on 15 Dec 2008 07:32:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Weregoose
Authentic INTJ
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Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 3976
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 12:19:16 am Post subject: |
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rcfreak0 wrote: Why did we just elect someone who doesnt salute the flag, wont pledge alligence to the flag, has ties to terrorist, and is possibly a terrorist himself. sure maybe he has some good ideas, but really, why him? with all these ties, i really think hes gonna kill us..And i know im gonna get some hate for that, but thats why its in the "rants and raves"..and Why i have freedom of speech in the US. That was... seriously uneducated. What you did right there doesn't qualify as useful or clever to anyone, and is, as I'm sure you know, highly questionable from any moral standpoint. Instead of dispensing hate-laden propaganda serving only to stir up your own utterly misguided sense of patriotism, you should try to find some reasonable balance between your emotions and what's really going on in the world. What you did was stupid, and I urge you not to repeat it unless you have some conscious awareness not of what you hope to obtain, but of what you are actually doing. And have some honesty and correctness to back it up.
To put it in easy terms, your trying to have a political opinion there just now is comparable to a horrible singer trying to succeed at the American Idol tryouts.
Last edited by Guest on 05 Nov 2008 12:22:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DigiTan
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Joined: 10 Nov 2003
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 12:42:48 am Post subject: |
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Well, those who have been here as long as I have know I'm probably the most Constitutionalist/Conservative member here. But I say the GOP is 100% responsible for the mess they made for themselves. In 2000, they balanced the house seats promising to reduce the size of government, shrink the deficit (and government overall), and follow the will of the people. Instead, they became decadent, turned their backs on the party platform, and overstretched the budget. If it wasn't for them alienating voters and mis-managing our military, the democrats wouldn't have a filibuster-proof majority right now. (Which I'm assuming is the case). That's a hard way to learn a lesson but, c'est la vie.
Last edited by Guest on 05 Nov 2008 12:43:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rcfreak0
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JoostinOnline
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Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 559
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| Posted: 05 Nov 2008 10:41:42 am Post subject: |
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magicdanw wrote: animals are conscious of pain. They strive to avoid it. They demonstrate a desire to remain alive. At the start of a pregnancy, a fetus does none of that. If you believe the mere potential to be alive gives it the right to life, then does masturbating kill potential babies?
[post="128470"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Just because an unborn baby is too weak to protect itself doesn't mean it is unconcious. Also, life is created at fertilization, not before.
DarkerLine wrote: But it's not alive. (Early on in the pregnancy) it doesn't respond to stimuli and it can't survive on its own.
[post="128473"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
That is a pretty weak argument, since a toddler couldn't even survive on its own. By your argument, only those who can live independently should be considered human, so someone on life support shouldn't be considered alive. If that is true, it would be okay to kill most people in a hospital or a nursing home.
rcfreak0 wrote: Abortion:
sure its bad, but what happened to people choice to decide? Sure yes, it could be viewed as murder, but really, let the lady decide, what if she got raped and wanted to get rid of the horrible memories of it, but if she has to carry a "rape baby", well thats not right either.[post="128475"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Your argument is also flawed. What you are saying is that murder is okay, as long as it makes someones life easier. I think that everyone here agrees that rape is horrible, but that is a different issue. |
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Open Topic & United-TI Talk => General Open Topic
