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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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 Posted: 06 Dec 2006 01:13:02 am Post subject: |
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So our school does this thing where you can get Windows XP for $21.64. My current 800MHz HP is on it's last leg performance-wise. Acutally, it runs well but I'm embarrased to say it's still running Windows ME.
For the first time in history, a company is actually rehiring me, which means I'm in the market for a low-cost or mid-cost PC. I can either build from scratch, try to find some deal on a pre-built one, or buy this 1.2GHZ machine for $250. I'm a fan of option #1. So my highschool bud and I are building computers this December.
We joked about installing ridiculous neon lights and water cooling but seriously, we're trying to avoid anything too costly or over-elaborate. So that brings me to my first question...
1. How do I shop for a motherboard?
I'll do a little window shopping tommorrow, but I really don't know what brands are out there, which ones are suitable, what they support, etc. Cost is a big factor. Upgradability maybe less so. The major factor is I need something that will supports legacy ports unless I want to hang on to my current PC as well.
2. How to match the case to the motherboard?
Or vice versa. Self explanatory
3. What CPU to buy?
Very lost here. Need something for the casual gamer/VB developer/CAD user.
The rest I should pick up on. The Win XP warranty is good for another 14 days so there's kind of a timetable here. I'm going to Fry's tomorrow. Above all, I'm trying not to overspend here. So any advice for product researching? |
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AlienCC
Creative Receptacle!
Know-It-All
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1927
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 01:47:42 am Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: 1. How do I shop for a motherboard?[post="92044"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
First choose what CPU you are going to buy. (Amd, Intel)
Limit the Motherboard down to the CPU Socket. (754, 939, 940, AM2, LGA775, 771, M, etc.)
Limit the Motherboard down to brands with good track records. (Asus, Abit, Gigabit, MSI, etc.)
Lastly you start nitpicking which features you require on the motherboard itself, PCI eXpress, SLI Support, Sata 1/2, Gigabit NIC, Integrated Video*/Audio, etc.
DigiTan wrote: 2. How to match the case to the motherboard?[post="92044"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Most retail consumer grade motherboards are ATX or Micro ATX, and will come with a back panel that fits into the case and aligns with the ports on the motherboard. They also typically come with every cable connector you need to plugin all of your devices internally.
DigiTan wrote: 3. What CPU to buy?[post="92044"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
This is where you need to choose...
Do you prefer Intel or Amd?
Do you want a 64-bit CPU (recommended) or a 32-bit CPU?
Do you want a single or dual core CPU?
Do you care about power consumption/heat generated?
After answering those questions it will be a lot more obvious which CPU to choose.
*Integrated Video is not recommended for Gaming or any intensive Multi-media usage.
--AlienCC
Last edited by Guest on 06 Dec 2006 01:51:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DigiTan
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Joined: 10 Nov 2003
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 01:42:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmmm. At the risk of starting an Intel vs. AMD debate I guess I'll say I don't know which one to go for. What are the primary models out nowadays? |
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Cure
Active Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 739
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 03:29:07 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion: I recommend the Intel Core Duo 2.
What I've read: I've heard great things about it. My computer magazine I get said it beat AMD for gaming. I don't want to be flamed for this, I'm simply repeating what I read. |
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Arcane Wizard
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Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 03:55:47 pm Post subject: |
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Anything that needs stability or compatibility (servers etc) goes for Intel.
But key is to go for a suitable mainboard with it, so the features it provides are of more importance.
Dual (or more) core either way though, no point in buying a new pc without it.
Last edited by Guest on 06 Dec 2006 03:57:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Newbie
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Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 09:28:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Dual Core can get pricey and you'll over do it with a Quad core because those extened past $1000. AMD is nice for the most part as its cheaper. For what hes doing I can't see him needing a dual core processor, although I don't know what games you play. Most mobos are ATX like ACC said so when you buy a case make sure its compatible with ATX which is very common so you could probably buy any case you want just about. With the ram and the processor theres no point in getting a lot of ram if your processor sucks and visa versa. You can also get a cheap video card from ATI which are pretty good. Usually you can get around 256mb of video ram for around @150 or less. |
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NETWizz
Byte by bit
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Joined: 20 May 2003
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| Posted: 06 Dec 2006 10:22:42 pm Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: Hmmm. At the risk of starting an Intel vs. AMD debate I guess I'll say I don't know which one to go for. What are the primary models out nowadays?
[post="92067"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
I am not going to participate in this debate. For the topic starter's purpose either AMD or Intel will do just fine. It does not matter in his case. I.e. his goal is a good, stable, computer for as little cash as possible.
Cure777 wrote: My opinion: I recommend the Intel Core Duo 2.
What I've read: I've heard great things about it. My computer magazine I get said it beat AMD for gaming. I don't want to be flamed for this, I'm simply repeating what I read.
[post="92072"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
The Intel Core 2 Duo is good as is the new Core 2 Extreme; however, this may be beyond his price range. I am not certain. There is nothing wrong with a good workhorse single core computer.
Arcane Wizard wrote: Anything that needs stability or compatibility (servers etc) goes for Intel.
But key is to go for a suitable mainboard with it, so the features it provides are of more importance.
Dual (or more) core either way though, no point in buying a new pc without it.
[post="92074"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Hum, Intel eh? I am not going to get too involved in this debate, but let me assure you that AMD and Intel are equally stable. Both the Opteron and the Xeon are fantastic. In fact, the brand new UTI server is going to be Opteron on Nforce4, an excellent combination that is equally stable as the Intel. Dual core is the latest trend, but it is by no means an end all be all. I personally have a Dual Core computer Athlon X2 and it is fantastic, so trust me I am not knocking it. Just pointing out if budget is the name of the game, single core is the way to win.
______________________________
On to my post:
1. Chose a processor and socket. If you choose AMD, you will get socket 754, Socket 939, or AM2. If you choose Intel, you should probalby get a socket LGA 775. While it is true there is Xeon 602, 701, old Intel 478, and other AMD sockets such as socket A, and socket 940 for Opterons, chances are you are not building a server.
With this in mind, you should probalby chose a socket 939, AM2, or LGA 775 CPU.
2. The motherboard is less important than the chipset. I.e. according to an article I read last summer by Tom's Hardware, Intel CPUs have some serrious stability problems on non Intel Chipsets. This does not mean Intel has to make the motherboard, it simply means that Intel on VIA, Intel on Nforce, etc is not the best combination.
With AMD, you should put AMD on Nforce 4 or Nforce 5 depnding on the CPU. The Socket 939 chips 64/X2/FX go with Nforce4 and DDR, where the newer Socket AM2 CPUs operate on Nforce 5 and DDR2. Obviously there are other chipsets, but the Nforce is the best hands down for the AMD processors right now. If you cannot get an Nforce chipset, you can get a VIA chipset that isn't bad. The VIA K8T890 is likely the second best for socket 939. I don't know the VIA equivalent to Nforce 5, but VIA K8T890 has many of the same features as Nforce4. However, it is still not on Par with the Nofrce.
Nforce 4 and 5 feature, Gigabit Nic, SLI on some boards, PCI Express, SATA 2, RAID, and typically have a really well designed Pheonix Bios. On the other hand the VIA equivalent is a little bit slower in general. Additionally, the VIA typically have SATA 1, minimal RAID, don't SLI as well, accept less memory in general...
So choose Intel/ Intel or AMD/Nforce if you are wise.
3. Choose a motherboard that is in the ATX form factor unless you are building a tiny computer and don't care about upgradeablility in which case MicroATX is okay. I recomend the full size ATX though. The most important thing is the chipset as it is the motherboards blueprint. I.e. Abit and Asus are different construction companies that build the same motherboard essentially. I.e. an Nforce4 ABIT and an Nforce 4 ASUS have more alike than different. You can even swap the boards out and will find they both have the same Pheonix bios, same number of sata connections, same northbridge, same southbridge... Essentially, they are in essence the exact same board even Windows will not require re-activation. Buy a well constructed board i.e. a constructor that doesn't take shortcuts would be nice. (ASUS, ABIT, and MSI, etc) are best. Gigabyte is great too, but I don't trust them after reading some websites about how they cheated in a few contests sending rigged boards to Tom's Hardware. I.e. they tweaked the voltage for the memory and processor in a product side by side comparison test, but they were caught when Tom's thought something was up and pulled out a multimerter. Try to avoid generic motherboards and those with a bad reputation. I.e. ECS (Elite Group), Jetway, and a few others are rated poorly on websites such as NewEgg.
You can usually get a combo consisting of Motherboard and Processor together. Usually the combos are about the same price as the processor. With junk motherboards like the $70 ECS boards, the combos are sometimes cheaper than getting just the processor. With high quality board such as ASUS, which is typically thought of as the best manufactuer, hands down, expect to pay a little more, but not much more. Shop wisely to save money.
*When choosing a motherboard DO NOT get any with AGP-Express (A PCI to AGP cheater BUS ) for backwards compatibility. An AGP Express slot is not at all an AGP slot, so don't bother. Avoid getting a motherboard that takes two types of memory. I.e. if your baord takes both DDR and DDR2, avoid it. ECS usually comes out with this backwards compatibility stuff. Unfortunatly, it comes at a price of performance and possibly stability.
Get the following:
* PCI Express X16 at least 1 maybe more
* No AGP
* NO Integrated Video unless you don't intend on using a video card, don't like CAD or games.
* More PCI Express x1 and maybe x2 or x4 (optional)
* Some PCI slots
If you get a motherboard with integrated video and also insert a video card one of two things will happen. It will work and you can connect 2 monitors or by the time you install the drivers for both, system resources and driver resources will be all messed up. I have seen this before at work about a year ago. Symptoms are windows stops loading or hangs on loading as soon as it loads the video drivers. Solution is an updated driver or removing one of the drivers and the device i.e. remove the card and driver or uninstall the driver and then go into bios setup and disable the integrated video. How do you get windows to boot again? Press F8 and select "VGA Mode" from the same menu that offers "Safe Mode" This tells Windows to load generic VGA drivers becausue the installed video drivers are broken not allowing you to get into Windows. Another option is to remove a video card or disable integrated video in BIOS. Typically drivers for non-existant hardware don't get loaded!
Buy online to save money. NewEgg and ZipZoomFly are great!
4. Now that you have a stable board and processor, you need memory. Get memory that is compatible with your baord by a trusted vendor such as but not limited too, Crucial, Corsair, OCZ, etc. You can get faster memory, but not slower. I.e. if your motherboard requres DDR 400 (PC 3200), you can put something faster in it, but DO NOT put DDR333 PC 2700 on the board. If you put slower memory and the system boots, it will run slower i.e. 333/400 is about 81%. You will have a dramatic memory bus mismatch, which when all the motherboard clocks are synced, will slow down the entire board to the slowest clock. I.e. your computer iwll be only about 81% as fast as it should be. To save money, get the value memory of some kind. I.e. Corsair Lifetime is okay usually. You can get some with a CAS Latency of 2.5, which is quite good. You will have to pay a ton more money to get very low latency stuff like Crucial Balistx, Corsair XMS, Kingston HyperX, etc. The difference is not going to be really that noticable unless you are overclocking or manually willing to get into the setup utility and set your memory refresh rates, etc. Just don't bother is my advice if you want your system reliable.
*Get Matched Memory for Dual Channel Use. I.e. buy a memory kit consisting fo 2 identical memory modules. Read your motherboard manual!! before actually installing anything. Generally, you want to put dual channel memory in the same color slots to get 128 bit access, which is twice as fast as only 64 bit memory access. Basically, this allows twice as much data to go too and from the memory giving hudge benefit. Again, if you got a crappy motherbord, Dual Channel may not work or may not work well.
5. Case and Power Supply. Get a good case that has all the holes line up. I moved a friend's computer to a new $25 case. The holes didn't line up and the LED and switch leads Reset and Power etc were not marked. I thought it was a piece of junk.
Get a good quality power supply such as an Antec, Enermax, or PC Power and Cooling just to name a few good companies. Heavier ones are usually better. I.e. they have better transformers, converters, rectifyers, capacitors, inductors, et cetera. If you get one of those extremely light $15 power supplies, don't expect the voltages to be right when the computer is under any kind of load. Essentially, you may end up with wierd symptoms like a computer that will not boot, but all the lights and fans come on but nobody is home.... Then after staying this way for a frew seconds hitting the reset button will cause it to POST. I saw this at a friends house. Replacing the power supply caused it to actually POST and fully boot when the power switch was pressed.
Go with at leat 350 Watts though 400 or more is highly recomended. I wouldn't ever buy less than a 450 watt Power supply. It should also have a circuit breaker on the back as well, have long leads, SATA power connectors, 24 Pin ATX that can be separated to support only 20 Pin, lots of Molex, etc. Nothing is worst than feeding quality parts bad power and damaging them or trying to run flakey hardware with flakey power. It is a recipie for disaster. Typically you will end up with sold freezes such as the mouse pointer freezing, black screen nothing on it, but the fans spinning, the computer acting like it is asleep but won't wake up, etc... Wierd flakey stuff that occurs without warning and is unpredictable.
6. Put it together as per your manual. Draw the board on some paper to see where the holes are located. Transfer this to the bottom of the case and put the pegs and spacers in place. Use the exact number of spacers or pegs you need to ensure the motherboard is off the bottom of the case, which would short it. Make sure you do not have even 1 extra peg out of place. All it takes is one missplaced PEG to short the motherboard given that everything is grounded to the chasis ground and the solder points are often smaller than the peg. Test the fit! Then remove the board, add the backplate and re-insert the board.
7. Install your processor according to directions. You will not need any force for any socket or Lan Grid Array. Just line everything up and let it fall into place. With LGA, clamp it down. With the PGA packages (pins on bottom of processor), have the lever up then slide it down to slide the entire Zero Insertion Force (ZIF) socket shut and clamp all the pins down. I know you are probably laughing and telling yourself that I am treating you like you do not know anything. The reason I am doing this is because I see mistakes everyday. Anytime Dell comes out to work on a Dell System at work, they have about a 75% success rate. The other 25% of the time, they don't connect something, bend pins, don't put the memory in proper slots for dual channel...something happens, but it isn't Dell's fault. Instead, it is the people or companies whom Dell hires to fix computers. I.e. Dell Tech's take an easy online test and are Dell Certified System's Experts. The test simply consists of questions that can be answered by the various Dell Guides. Questions like "how many memory slots are in an OptiPlex GX150 Small Form Factor Desktop Computer?" instead of real-world and experienced based questions.
DO NOT Touch the Pins, the little pads on the bottom, or the top of a processor. Doing this may bend the pins, zap it with static electricity, put finger oil on it degrading good connections to the motehrboard via an electrical plating type reaction degrading the connection via your finger oil as a catylyst. Touching the top will get finger oil on it, which is not as good a conductor as thermal interface material (TIM).
Securely attach your heatsink/CPU cooler ensuring proper oriantation. Make sure it is flush with the processor, in good contact, and that it will not fall off. Be sure to secure it via locking levor or other mechanism. See the instructions that come with the PIB (Processor In Box) and your motherboard Manual. Also be sure to plugin the fan to the FAN header. There is a sensor that tells the motherboard the CPU fan is working, so you must use the right fan header.
8. Connect audio front pannels, LCDs, switches, extra USB ports, Firewire headers and alll the other stuff that goes to the case. Rerfer to your manual for info on how to hook it up. LCDs are polar; hence, they only light up if connected right. If an LED light doesn't work, you probably got the connection reversed.
9. Add your video card to preferably PCI-Express x16 or AGP if you are living in the past and buying old technology. You should get an ATI or an NVIDIA card.
If you want comatibility with Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and all kinds of Operating Systems, Nvidia is much better than ATI. If you want to be able to easily find your drivers and download them 5 years from now, with Nvidia, it will still be a cakewalk. Heck, you can download GeForce 2 drivrs and TNT/RAGE stuff for XP! NOt only that, Nvidia Installers work without error usually.
With ATI, install it first if you can. ATI software often envolves an easter egg hunt to find the proper drivers as it is common practice to install a base driver and a supplemental driver that fixes the 8 or 9 unknown devices your ATI card shows up as in Device Manager.
Rule of thumb, ATI programers suck compared to the Nvidia competition. One case and point, I bought an ATI Remote Wonder TV tuner in November of 2006. The driver it came with on CD did not register a needed DLL. I downloaded an updated driver from the Internet, but it still didn't work. I was logged in as administrator too!!! I tried to manually register the dll, but that failed too. I had to search some support forums where I found my answer. I had to open regedit and change some permissions in the registry, because the installer writes some registry keys that are not writable by itself or the dll registering apis of windows. I don't know which. But after fixing the permissions, and manually registering x10net.dll, finally my stupid remote controll finally wored. Best of all, it the RemoteWonder tray icon crashes every once in a while and I have to restart the program. Shitty lack of programmers. Hell, I would say this shouldn't even be a beta driver. I feel like a product tester anytime I install ATI software.
I recomend you buy a Geforce 7 series from somewhere like ZipZoomFly or NewEgg online. The 7000 series has DirectX 9 support and OpenGL 2 support. Also natively supports Windows Vista! The drivers work flawlessly too even on Linux.
7300 series is the lowe end stuff, but excellent for most people. Will even play most games well.
7600 Mid Range much better than 7300 for gaming. Should run all games well.
7800/7900 series is top of the line. These cards are zoom zoom and will out bench almost any computer you come across in 3D benchmarks. Just one 7800 GT will get you into the top 1% of graphics performance for not a lot of money.
Attach your monitor, keyboard, and an optical drive. Check your setup utility, set time, restore defaults or equivalent. Make sure your processor is staying cool and it reports voltages as being right. Then run MemTest86+ to make sure your ram is good.
10. Install your IDE drives or SATA. SATA/SATA2 is easy, just put them in connect power and a SATA cable.
IDE:
Primary (maybe marked 0 or 1) = Tradition states if you are using a bootable hard disk, it should be Primary Master especially if you have only one disk. By default if you connect a lot of drives and do not tell it which drive to boot, it will boot the primary master assuming that drive has a Master Boot Record (MBR), boot sector, OS...
Secondary (Maybe marked 1 or 2) = For additional drives such as optical drives, DVD burner, additional Hard Disks...
When setting jumpers, I recomend CS (Cable Select). If you set everything cable select, you can attach it to any IDE cable and the BIOS will sort out what device it is. Master is the end of the cable, and Slave is the middle. Obviously if you have only one drive, you should put it at the end of the cable, but I bet it would still work in the middle even though this would be an incorrect procedure. Modern Bios's are Intelligent, but you can still do Master and Slave if you really want too. If you do this, you have to double check that you actually have the jumpers right. Additionally sometimes a Master without a slave may not work; hence, you can set single.
Tradition:
Traditionally computes had 1 optical drive and one hard drive. They put them on different IDE channels primary master for hdd and secondary master for optical drive. this allowed both drives to operate better than they would if they were attached to the same cable on the same IDE channel/controller.
General Tip here is to balance the load. I.e. if you put one hard drive on the primary, the next hard drive should go somewhere on the other channel. If you can, it is great to keep the Operating system by itself on its own channel, so only one drive has access to the IDE channel and doesn't have to share its bandwith with other devices. However, given choices such as 3 hard drives and 1 DVD writer, the DVD writer is a slower device and would be best suited on the same cable as the operating system disk unless perhaps you want to install a lot of software from CD/DVD media in which case it may be best to have it on a different channel as copying data from primary to secondary ide channels is typically faster than between devices on the same channel/cable. Just use common sense, whatever you do, it will pretty much work.
*Most IDE hard drives are ATA 133 or ATA 100. Any drive ATA 66 or better needs the 80 Pin cable not the 40 pin. (DMA Mode 4 and above). Some new DVD writers are ATA 66. When in doubt, use an 80 Pin cable. It will work for all your IDE type drives even old slow ones.
If you can, put the OS on a SATA or SATA 2 drive as they are much faster and don't suffer from speed problems as they each have dedicated bandwith at least on good motherboards with good chipsets such as the Nforce 4.
11. Now, be sure to set your boot order in the Bios, connect all that other stuff such as a mouse at the very least. Install your OS such as Windows, Install drivers such as the chipset drivers or some drivers from the chipset, install video, audio, and NIC drivers if needed...[/b]
12. Run dxdiag to ensure all the DirectX renderings are working okay.. Basically you just want to make sure all components of DirectX are enabled. If you see them listed as not supported, you have a driver issue. If the resoultion is messed up and won't allow you to fix it, install the proper driver... When done, the Device Manager should not have a single question mark.
* Tip: It may be best to avoid some drivers as they are superflourus. Examples of this are mouse drivers and keyboard drivers or USB memory drive drivers. If all the features and buttons of your devices work as intended, do not install a driver. The Microsoft drivers are all stable and work well. They don't add unnecessary clutter, nor do they slow down the system, nor do they fill your system tray full of useless, annoying tray icons, widgets, applets....
Rarely, a driver will cause problems such as some IDE drivers that are not as good as the MIcrosoft ones. Sometimes a sound, network, or video driver may cause a problem too, but this is rare. Regardless, when a driver breaks, the hardware abrubly quites working and you see a yellow question next to the device in the device manager. If the driver is important, critical, or designed poorly you will get a BSOD (Blue Screen of Death). Be sure to read it and note the error message. What you are looking for specifically is a file name. If you see something like "MyCrappyDriver.sys caused a conflict in..." note the file name because it is the key to solving the problem. Essentially, you should reboot and search for the file, get its properties, version, company, and other info. As yourself where is it located? If it is in a folder containing all kinds of sound ATI stuf, it is probably a driver for some ATI hardware. Use common sense. To verify it, go to the Device Manager and take an educated guess. Now get the driver details and find if the .sys file mentioned is part of the driver by looking at the driver files.
* You can also search google.com or another search engine to see what you come up with. Additionally, you can find discussion threads with an answer to these sorts of problems. In general, the fix is an updated driver that corrects the issue or changing or updating another driver that it is conflicting with in rare instances. If the problem is particularly bad or bothersome, your only option may be to uninstall the driver and not use or discard/replace the device with a different one that uses a different driver |
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Arcane Wizard
`semi-hippie`
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Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 01:28:31 am Post subject: |
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Quote: Hum, Intel eh? It was just an observation. I see everybody here getting intel servers, not amd.
Quote: Just pointing out if budget is the name of the game, single core is the way to win. But then you run the risk of having to buy a new (dual core) cpu next year. In total this will be more expensive than buying a dual core cpu right away. |
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benryves
Active Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 564
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 09:07:23 am Post subject: |
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Caveat: 64-bit CPUs, when running in 64-bit mode, will not run 16-bit applications. This only applies you run any older 16-bit Windows applications (such as GraphLink) or DOS applications.
A 64-bit CPU in 32-bit mode (so running a regular version of Windows as opposed to the x64 version) is not affected.
As an aside, I have never had any problems with ATi hardware or drivers. That said, the alternative Omega Drivers are less hassle than the official ATi drivers.
To me it's always seemed that hardware quality is inversely proportional to software quality (see also: hp printers and scanners, Creative Labs audio hardware).  |
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tifreak8x
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Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 956
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 11:07:14 am Post subject: |
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I was able to build my computer for $500.00 and it has been fairly reliable. I will endeavor to find the parts list that I used, if you want.
Also, you can find some good laptops for $500.00... I got a brand new Toshiba for 500.00... Came with most of the goodies that I wanted. |
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Arcane Wizard
`semi-hippie`
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Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 12:21:17 pm Post subject: |
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| When in doubt, customize a PC at a site like dell or something, then get the parts yourself. |
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DigiTan
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Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 05:15:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hrm....How do you match the heatsink up to the CPU? Socket type or CFMs...or somethin?
Last edited by Guest on 07 Dec 2006 05:24:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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alexrudd
pm me if you read this
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 06:15:34 pm Post subject: |
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Why the advice for 64 bit instead of dual-core?
Right now, 64 bit doesn't have any applications, but dual-core does. DigiTan's copy of XP most likely won't be 64 bit anyway.
Whatever you get, don't waste money on some crappy integrated graphics card. If you are going to be using CAD (3d I presume) and some games, you will want an actual graphics card. Older generation ones work just fine and aren't very expensive. |
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DigiTan
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| Posted: 07 Dec 2006 11:58:12 pm Post subject: |
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I noticed dual core made a $100 difference at the stores I checked. After checking the recommendation on games/apps I'll probably be using, I'm going for a CPU probably in the 2.2 - 2.8GHz area (no integrated video like NewWIZ said). Leaning toward AMD.
I had more questions on the CPU:
1. What's a good mid-range memory rating for a CPU? 8GB? 4GB? 2GB?
2. What's a good FSB speed? Saw a lot of 1600/2000.
3. How to match the CPU to a heatsink?
4. Do all ATX style cases come with the right holes for mouse/keyboard, serial, parallel, etc?
Last edited by Guest on 08 Dec 2006 12:18:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Arcane Wizard
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| Posted: 08 Dec 2006 01:29:57 am Post subject: |
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I recommend the X1300Pro 256mb 16x PCIe for a budget video card.
Also, CPUs in the 2.2-2.8GHz area vary a lot depending on their efficiency. Don't bother getting a plain P4 at that speed. Athlon would be a bit better. Dual core with a speed in that range blows pretty much anything out of the water.
Last edited by Guest on 08 Dec 2006 01:30:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NETWizz
Byte by bit
Bandwidth Hog
Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 2369
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| Posted: 08 Dec 2006 03:20:05 am Post subject: |
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Arcane Wizard wrote: Quote: Hum, Intel eh? It was just an observation. I see everybody here getting intel servers, not amd.
Quote: Just pointing out if budget is the name of the game, single core is the way to win. But then you run the risk of having to buy a new (dual core) cpu next year. In total this will be more expensive than buying a dual core cpu right away.
[post="92147"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
Intel servers are, indeed, more common. If I bought a server, I would honestly prefer Intel, but that is not the issue here. Additionally, there is nothing inherently wrong with an AMD Server. Nor is there any considerable difference between AMD and INtel for the desktop. Either Intel or AMD can be used to build a fast budget computer, IMO. Hence, I offered both choices.
My personal preference not right or wrong:
Intel for Servers
Intel for Notebooks/tablets/laptops
AMD for desktop and standalone computers.
Intel for workstations that are precision business machines. I.e. If I put in a purchase request to buy 1000 PC's at work, they are definitly going to be Intel.
Regardless, I am not going to fault either as I have seen great products for all of the above from both Intel and AMD.
In the case of the topic starter, he has a standalone/desktop PC that may be connected to his network but not necessarily in any official sense. I.e. he probalby won't do a network boot, take an inventory over the network, etc. He doens't need to coordinate thousands of machines like a fine tuned marching band. Besides, adding AMD takes a little bit of flare to go anti-intel. It says to people especially if you build it yourself that you are unconventional, willing to try new things, and open minded.
Right now, I am on my spare parts box that is not Wintel (Windows/Intel). It is AMD/Linux, Honestly, my spare boxk is a piece of junk made with $50 for the case plus spare parts I had lying around. Although I consider it mostly junk, it has absolutly no problems and has never once been flakey or crashed.
ECS K8T890 chipset
AMD Athlon64 939 3200+ Vinace
(2 x 512) Corsair Value Ram 184-Pin DDR400 (PC3200) CAS 2.5
100 GB Maxtor Hard Drive
Nvidia 7300GB by EVGA in the PCI-Express x16 package
1 Lite-On 16X DVD +/- RW Burner
Ubuntu Linux Dapper LTS
Note necessarily. I have seen CPUs such as the Athlon 64 3200+ drop from over $200 to under $100 in about a year. With dual cores being as expensive as they are now, they will surely experience a sudden drop in price as soon as the quad cores and much faster CPUs are released. Within 1 year, I sxpect to be able to find CPUs that cost $400 today to cost under $100. This should essentially leave room to doulbe his computer speed a year or two later for under $100. This I feel will provide excellent upgradeability, while still keeping him on budget, and additionally won't cost more money if you take considerable time into the equasion.
DigiTan wrote: Hrm....How do you match the heatsink up to the CPU? Socket type or CFMs...or somethin?
[post="92167"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
You buy a PIB (Processor In Box)
It includes the processor, the heatsink, the thermal interface material, some instructions or a paper card of some kind, warranty info, and some stickers that say Intel or AMD for putting on your case.
Everything you need to mount your processor comes in the box; hence, you can just use the stock cooler.
alexrudd wrote: Why the advice for 64 bit instead of dual-core?
Right now, 64 bit doesn't have any applications, but dual-core does. DigiTan's copy of XP most likely won't be 64 bit anyway.
Whatever you get, don't waste money on some crappy integrated graphics card. If you are going to be using CAD (3d I presume) and some games, you will want an actual graphics card. Older generation ones work just fine and aren't very expensive.
[post="92178"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
He should look at both processors and price everything out. If he can find a dual core at a good price, he should get that.
Also note that both the Intel and AMD dual cores are 64-bit. The advice for 64 bit doesn't matter as all processors he is likely to be able to buy are 64 bit now.
AMD processors have AMD64 and Intel has EM64T. Essentially any Socket 939 or newer AMD socket and Socket LGA 775 Intel or better is newer is going to be 64 bit.
Old generation graphics cards work but may not work for new games or cad depending on the requirements. If he has an old AGP card, that won't work with PCI-Express. If he plans on using an old AGP card, he should get a motherbaord with real AGP support not AGP-Express support.
The reality is that he can buy a new video card that is not very expensive. If he is looking for a real budge, he can visit Newegg or somewhere else and do a search. He should be able to get something for either video bus. But note that an old 2x/4x card is not going to perform well in an AGP 8x slot.
I had a friend running a RIVA TNT RAGE or something. It was such a piece of junk he couldn't play a DVD unless the window was sized to about 1" by 1". I put his computer back together after moving it to the new case and was not impressed at all. The resolution and video quality sucked too. It could barely draw the XP themes. I replaced the card with a crappy EVGA 128 MB NVidia 6200 I had laying around. It was so much better and he thanked me.
DigiTan wrote: I noticed dual core made a $100 difference at the stores I checked. After checking the recommendation on games/apps I'll probably be using, I'm going for a CPU probably in the 2.2 - 2.8GHz area (no integrated video like NewWIZ said). Leaning toward AMD.
I had more questions on the CPU:
1. What's a good mid-range memory rating for a CPU? 8GB? 4GB? 2GB?
2. What's a good FSB speed? Saw a lot of 1600/2000.
3. How to match the CPU to a heatsink?
4. Do all ATX style cases come with the right holes for mouse/keyboard, serial, parallel, etc?
[post="92205"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
1. Assuming you are talking about RAM (system memory), get at least 1 GB if you want to be happy. Mid Range is 2 GB, 4GB is a lot of memory, 8GB is wasting money unless you have a server or running 64 bit to use it. XP 32-bit won't deal with more than 4 even then it is iffey after 3.25. Since you are on a budget, I recomend 1 GB. You can get more later, but that should be enough to do everything you do as long as you don't do everything at the same time.
2.FSB speed varies based on the chipsets and processors. Last I checked AMD Hyper Transport 2000 and Intel 1066? (whatever came after the Intel 800 FSB). Just pick a quality processor socket 929, AM2, or LGA 775 and avoid Celeron and Sempron. Then get a quality motherboard featureing a quality chipset and com pare the motherboards for your processor. They will all be the same or possibly there will be two choices. Regardless, if you get the Nforce or a good VIA or Intel chipset on a quality board such as ASUS, you will get a good FSB.
3. The CPU comes with a heatsink and everything you need to mount it once. You get only one go. IF you screw up, you must clean the cpu and heatsink to remove all residue then use thermal interface material such as Arctic Silver 5 or Shin Estu MicroSi...
4. Mouse, Serial, Parallel, keyboard, PS/2, some USB, a network port, and possibly some others are attached to the motherboard. You remove a back plate from the case and then replace it with the one that comes with the motherboard. Now you slide the motherboard in and everything on the back of the motherboard now matches the ATX case as you changed the tempate with the one that comes with the motherboard. So the cases do not come with the right ports, but the motherboards do; additionally, the motherboard includes everything you need to mount it in an ATX case except screws and pegs, which come with the case. The motherboard additionally will come with cables, chipset drivers, and manual(s). You may gets other miscelaneous stuff too like a sata power converter (Molex to SATA) maybe some blanks, possibly some additional USB adapters that can be plugged into the motherboard and mounted on the back, maybe some RAID floppies... The point is that nearly everything is included. |
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Arcane Wizard
`semi-hippie`
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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| Posted: 08 Dec 2006 03:46:17 am Post subject: |
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NETWiz wrote: If I bought a server, I would honestly prefer Intel, but that is not the issue here.[post="92210"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post] That was the only point I was making, that they are more common in servers and for a reason. It's an observation worth considering in my opinion as I don't care much for taking AMD just to be out-of-the ordinary like the millions of others who do the same thing. |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 08 Dec 2006 03:32:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I finally narrowed it down to a few series. Trying to spend less than $190 on the processor so it's looking like: Atholn 64 X2 (4200+ or 4400+. Maybe 4600+ or 4800+ if other component costs let me get a $200+ CPU), Athlon 64 FX (FX-55 probably), Intel Core 2 Duo (E6300), Pentium D Dual Core (930). I'm guessing Pentium D will not support 64-bit though right?
1. [CPU] What's a good L2 cache size to go for? Everything near/in my price range comes in 2x512kB, 2x1MB, and 2x2MB.
2. [CPU] I need 64-bit for Windows Vista right?
3. [CPU] If a game recommends 2.4GHz, would a 2.4GHz dual core be overkill?
4. [Mobo] What are PCI Express x1, PCI Express x16, PATA, and PATA RAID for?
5. [PSU] How do I know my power supply will be big enough? Add up all the components?
6. [Video] 256MB is good for a video card right?
7. [Optical] Are combinational drives a good idea? I found a Samsung that does CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-ROM, DVD+/-R(W), and DVD-RAM. $69.99.
Last edited by Guest on 08 Dec 2006 03:47:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JoeImp
Enlightened
Active Member
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 747
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| Posted: 08 Dec 2006 09:11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| It's great that you're asking a lot of questions to learn stuff, but I definitely wouldn't drop a lot of money to build a computer if I didn't know how everything worked, and what was good or not. I'd start googling and read a lot first. Although I guess I didn't really know too much about hardware when I built mine, I really lucked out on making a good system. |
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NETWizz
Byte by bit
Bandwidth Hog
Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 2369
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| Posted: 09 Dec 2006 02:07:44 am Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: Well, I finally narrowed it down to a few series. Trying to spend less than $190 on the processor so it's looking like: Atholn 64 X2 (4200+ or 4400+. Maybe 4600+ or 4800+ if other component costs let me get a $200+ CPU), Athlon 64 FX (FX-55 probably), Intel Core 2 Duo (E6300), Pentium D Dual Core (930). I'm guessing Pentium D will not support 64-bit though right?
1. [CPU] What's a good L2 cache size to go for? Everything near/in my price range comes in 2x512kB, 2x1MB, and 2x2MB.
2. [CPU] I need 64-bit for Windows Vista right?
3. [CPU] If a game recommends 2.4GHz, would a 2.4GHz dual core be overkill?
4. [Mobo] What are PCI Express x1, PCI Express x16, PATA, and PATA RAID for?
5. [PSU] How do I know my power supply will be big enough? Add up all the components?
6. [Video] 256MB is good for a video card right?
7. [Optical] Are combinational drives a good idea? I found a Samsung that does CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-ROM, DVD+/-R(W), and DVD-RAM. $69.99.
[post="92227"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
1. It honestly all depends on the CPU. It seems more is usually better though. Quite honestly 2x 2MB is probably overkill. That is a log of cache. Just get the most you can and that is reasonable. Typically there is a hudge price difference to buy a lot of static memory.
2. No, you don't need 64-bit for Windows Vista if you use the 32-bit version, but I highly suggest you get a 64-bit processor. Allmost all of them are 64 bit now. AMD64 and Intel EM64T is the instruction set you are seeking.
*. Pentium D does support EM64T, 64 Bit. Here, look:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList....SubCategory=343
3. Yes, a 2.4 Ghz dual core would be overkill for a game that recomends dual core. Just, FYI the GHZ rating doesn't really matter. It isn't a speed indicator, but only a clock cycle indicator. I.e. a slow Core Duo, Core 2 Duo, or Core 2 Solo i.e. 2 Ghz is going to easily smoke a 3 GHZ Pentium 4. It is much like how the Pentium M Centrino used to be really fast for such a slow clock speed. Also look at AMD. The 3200+ for example is only 2GHZ, yet it will easily outperform a 3.2GHZ pentium 4 in pretty much everything.
4. A Pentium D is pretty much equivalent to 2x Pentium 4. A Core 2 Duo is like an effiicient, low power consumption, fast CPU that will smoke just about everything on the market. Heck, you probalby need the very latest AM2 or possibly a Core 2 Extreme Quad Core to beat a Core 2 Duo. Even the slowest Core 2 Duo will probably beat every Pentium D, Pentium 4, Pentium M, ... ever made.
5. PCI Express is a new bus much like PCI only it is serial wired. A PCI Express x1 bus means it has 1 serial connection and fits an PCI Express x1 device. I.e. it is a slot that is about an inch wide. It has more bandwidth than a PCI slot.
There is also PCI Express 4, which is the same as 4 x1 slots all in one slot, 8x, which is half a 16x and finally 16x slots. You can put an x1, x2, x4, or x8 in a 16. Essentially, you can put devices in larger slots as only some of the serial connections are used. Think of it like multiplexing. You put an x16 video card in, instead of one slow paralell connection, the card makes 16 logical fast serial connectihttp://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2000340343+1050716915&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=343ons. It shares the benefits of SATA, USB, Hot Plug, has Prioritization, doesn't have to worry about packets arriving at the same time on the bus, packet resend, and various protocols. PCI Express is the greatest PC bus ever built, so don't be without it. If you buy a PCI Express x16 video card, there is so much more potential being PCI Express.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express
*IDE drives and devices are often referred to as EIDE devices or ATA devices. PATA devices are Parallel ATA devices. I.e. they are things like hard drives and optical drives that use the flat IDE/PATA ribon cable to connect.
*On the other hand SATA uses a serial connection. I recomend Serial ATA.
*RAID is Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks. Essentially, you put many hard disks together and get them to be seen by the computer and operating system as only one hard disk. The advantage is redundancy. Take for example a RAID 1 mirror. IN this example, there are two hard drives that are identical copies. If one fails, the computer keeps going.
RAID 0 is striping without parity. Basically you increase bandwidth by reading and writing to 2 drives simotaneously. The problem is that there is no redundancy.
RAID 5 requires 3 or more drives and consists of striping with distributed parity. Think of a RAID 0 like the above only the data is strung across 3 or more drives. Additionally, drives in a RAID 5 do not contain a complete copy of all the data, but instead the data is distributed across all of the drives and parity is written to another one. At least that is how to think of it. The honest truth is that both the stirpping and parity are distributed across 3 or more disks. This allows you to read and write to 3 or more disks simotaneously that are seen as one, and have redundancy. You can loose any 1 drive in a RAID 5 and the integrity of the data will still be valid and readable. Additionally, you can replace the bad drive and recontruct the missing data on the fly even while using the RAID. I.e. reading and writing to it. The only con or downfall to a RAID 5 is the increased processing power it takes to calculate the parity that is distributed to maintain fault tolerance. RAID 5 is often used in servers, so if a hard drive fails, it can be replaced without the need to shutdown and without data loss. With a quality RAID controller, the card itself will handle the PARITY and rebuilding features, so there will be no strain on your computer or server. Regardless, quality motherboards like the Nvidia Nforce 4 or 5 have built in RAID support that works excellently even with RAID 5.
6. It is hard to know what is big enough. You will not likely be able to find the power requirements of your hardware as the spectification is not really listed. Additionally, there is inefficiency we don't live in a perfect world. As devices spin up et cetera, the computer may require more. Some devices require a hudge current spike (not voltage spike) to start. You could hook a computer up to a watt meter and find out how much it takes, but that would be the input energy not the actual amount delivered to the hardware.
My ABIT Nforce 4, 4 GB, 2x Video cards, and 4 hard drives takes 270 WATTS of power according to my APC 1500 VA SMart Ups. When I turn off and on multiple monitors to see how much they require, the average 19" LCD takes between 70 and 80 watts of electricity. The computer itself takes the rest. The computer you build will likely take 200 watts or less of input energy, but should have a 400 watt power supply; I think.. It doesn't cost much more for a better power supply, so be sure to get a good one.
6. 256 MB is good for a video card, but like a computer memory isn't everything. A video card consists of its own tiny motherboard built to the spectifications of its chipset, a video processor, and memory usually GDDR3 memory or something to that extent. Basically, it is very expensive memory that is low latency DDR probably PC800 or better. It is still DRAM though. If you wonder why video cards get as expensive as they do, it is because each one is itself an entire computer with a flash rom and everything except storage and a power supply. Think of it like this, if you added 2 GB of memory to a Pentium 2, 200 MhZ computer, would it not still suck? The same thing applies to video cards. You want a good chipset used to build a good card via careful construction and attention to detail. Take for example the Nvidia chipsets. They are great. EVGA is an excellent builder of Nvidia Chipsets as well. There is also XFX, BFG, and quite a few others.
7. Drives that can burn everything are a good idea. Essentially, they contain 1 maybe 2 lasers. It is really just programming for the most part via the drive's firmware and a few other minor differences that allow a DVD burner to burn the -, the + or both. I would avoid DVD-RAM disks though as teh entire concept is not really supported well at all. Additionally, $69 for an optical drive is too much money unless you geting an awsome PLextor. Check Out Newegg for example. Take for example this drive:
It is an 18X DVD burner that probably beats the pants off that Samsung. Additionally, it costs only $37, has free shipping, and probably no tax depending on your state.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16827106043
Heck, you can even get a SATA model for only $35 though not 18X or free shipping (about $5)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16827106046
Here is a cheapo, quality regular edition Western Digital SATA 2 hard drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16822136036
This drive is only $60 for the retail boxed version with cable and useless CD. 1 Year warranty for retail Western Digital, but Western Digital is the best hands down I think. Additionally AlienCC trusts them as do all the guys at work. Neither I nor the people I work with have had any trouble with Western Digital drives, yet we own thousands of them at work.
Here is an equivalent drive made by Seagate, an inferrior company (based on personal experience and problems with them I have witnessed), the same size, same buffer, and the same interface, and the same spindle speed. Also in a retail kit. http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4008242
This drive costs $90 at this time, which is a ton more $$$ for an inferior product. I recomend newegg.com and zipzoomfly. Buy.com is also great.
If you want to get a 3 year warranty instead of a 1 year, buy OEM from Newegg. YOu will get a bare drive no cables if you do this, so be sure you have the cable.
Here:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList....&SubCategory=14
All of these are excellent. The SE16 drives have a large cache.
I own 3 of these drives 1 retail and 2 OEM. They are all identical, but the OEM have 2 year longer warranty.
These are very high quality drives, which are on free shipping at this moment.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16822144701
868 reviews right now average is 5 stars. If 868 people who bought it are rating it high, it must be working pretty darn good for everybody. I can tell you that they are working perfect for me and AlienCC. Best Desktop drives I think that are for sale are these. Obviously this excludes the 10,000 RPM and Specialty SCSI stuff, which is clearly better.
[b]Look around and shop wisely. I did enough research for you to help you get a $37 burner and $75 hard drive that are both fantastic. 250 GB storage and an 18x burner that burns all popular formats. Both have high ratings. All you have to do is find a case/power supply combo, a motherboard, processor combo, a video card, and some memory (RAM).
"Oh, did I mention these are Serial ATA 2 drives... the second generation stuff? How about that their are no jumpers that need to be messed with? Should I also mention they are backwards compatible with Serial ATA 1? If you get these, you will not be sorry."
Last edited by Guest on 09 Dec 2006 02:10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Computer Tech Support => Technology & Calculator Open Topic
