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Arcane Wizard
`semi-hippie`
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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 Posted: 06 Apr 2006 06:31:27 pm Post subject: |
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Plague wrote: That reminds me of the joke:
"A store sells eggs for 12cents a dozen, a man buys 200 eggs, how much did they charge him?"
[post="74369"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
200 / 12 * 12 = 200 cents? : )
I'm sure people use calcs too quickly. However, how often are you presented with mathematical problems more advanced than figuring out a rough estimate of your grocerey bill before you come to the cash register or something more advanced than taxes? It's a shame those mental calculations of things like probabilty or the mass difference in nuclear reactions are often done with a calculator instead, as doing that with nothing but your head, a piece of paper, and a pen was what I liked about high school. It's a shame that graduating high school therefor doesn't mean a thing whatsoever, but using a calculator will be faster and less prone to errors unless you're a math teacher and have been doing it for 50 years or unless you're gifted.
Know how to do it, but use a calculator so you don't waste people's time. |
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chipmaster
Active Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 601
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 06:35:09 pm Post subject: |
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Fr0stbyte124 wrote: Square roots.
[post="74466"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
...can be done out on paper quickly using Heron's Method? |
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Fr0stbyte124
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 98
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 07:00:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I've never seen that before. Still, calculators can make life much easier with slow and unpleasant processes. Who liked finding roots of a polynomial using the P/Q method? (And don't tell me that Heron improved that one, too. My heart couldn't handle all the excitement.)  |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 07:24:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Calculators aren't very efficient with polynomials either, when it comes to finding exact solutions. |
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Tiberious726
Advanced Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 284
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 08:47:32 pm Post subject: |
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DarkerLine wrote: Calculators aren't very efficient with polynomials either, when it comes to finding exact solutions.
[post="74481"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
well.... the 89 is....
i do agree that calculator make life easier; and are indeed quite useful; what i dislike is when they are used as a replacement for thinking; for actucally understanding the material; my stance is that the material should be taught without calculators at least at first so people understand what is happening; then use the calculators once the material has been mastered; ever wonder why many foriene nations produce math students that are on average better than the average US student (besides cultural differances obviously) many of them cant afford calculators and so must be taught useing paper and pencil |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 09:04:12 pm Post subject: |
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Tiberious726 wrote: DarkerLine wrote: Calculators aren't very efficient with polynomials either, when it comes to finding exact solutions.
[post="74481"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
well.... the 89 is....
About calculators to avoid thinking, here's a good link: http://talldarkandmysterious.ca/archives/2...s-then-and-now/
Actually, the whole blog is a good reference for why calculators are evil. |
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chipmaster
Active Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 601
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elfprince13
Retired
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 3500
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| Posted: 06 Apr 2006 10:29:27 pm Post subject: |
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chipmaster wrote: I agree. P/Q's were a pain. I made a program the day we were taught them that found out the "good" solutions. When we had a test on them, my teacher insisted that we use trial and error with P/Q's. Let's just say I was very lucky and found the correct P/Q's on my first attempts 
[post="74505"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
as soon as we learned completing the square I wrote a program that showed the steps. |
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Jeremiah Walgren
General Operations Director
Know-It-All
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: 07 Apr 2006 01:07:17 am Post subject: |
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| I was taught how to use differentials for finding square roots of nasty numbers. I thought it was quite fun, actually. |
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josefnpat
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: 07 Apr 2006 04:45:07 am Post subject: |
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Differential Integration (Area under a curve). You would need some kind of advance calculus class to work those out by hand.
FnInt(min,max,mean,variance
along with the
InvNorm(value,mean,variance
( i think )
the IB hands out three exta pages witht he values to be used for these kinds of problems on the exam. |
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Jeremiah Walgren
General Operations Director
Know-It-All
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: 07 Apr 2006 08:39:54 am Post subject: |
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josefnpat wrote: Differential Integration (Area under a curve). You would need some kind of advance calculus class to work those out by hand.
FnInt(min,max,mean,variance
along with the
InvNorm(value,mean,variance
( i think )
the IB hands out three exta pages witht he values to be used for these kinds of problems on the exam.
[post="74527"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
For more advanced integration problems, perhaps. I was able to do generic integration problems with nothing more than a little high school calculus.
FnInt, by the way, has arguments of (equation,variable,min,max) if I am not mistaken. |
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Plague
Member
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 242
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| Posted: 07 Apr 2006 01:49:36 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
They are Anti-Us right? lol
83+ will do anything if your smart enuff to make it  . Im sure you could (this gives me an ideal) makew teh 83+ do anything (although slower) that the 89 could do.
That sounds liek a good project, try and incoperate all the functions of the 89 into a ti-83+ application. That would own... do and im sure you could even sell it so people can use it on SAT's or what ever big tests wont let u use them hehe |
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koresho
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 53
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 03:58:14 pm Post subject: |
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Tiberious726 wrote: i do agree that calculator make life easier; and are indeed quite useful; what i dislike is when they are used as a replacement for thinking; for actucally understanding the material; my stance is that the material should be taught without calculators at least at first so people understand what is happening; then use the calculators once the material has been mastered; ever wonder why many foriene nations produce math students that are on average better than the average US student (besides cultural differances obviously) many of them cant afford calculators and so must be taught useing paper and pencil
[post="74496"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
haha here you are, saying this, in a forum that ushers along the very thing you don't like. The highest form of what you are talking about:
Don't even bother setting values for A,B, and C and then typing out the Quadratic Equation on your graphing calculator. Just run this program that asks you what they are, and tells you what the answers are. lol |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 04:16:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'd wager the education problem has more to do with how students of all skill levels are lumped together in the same classes; whereas in Europe placement is skill-based. US students are also underperforming in literacy, historical knowledge, and other subjects that have nothing to do with calculators.
Last edited by Guest on 18 Apr 2006 04:20:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuro
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 50
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 04:21:15 pm Post subject: |
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| In addition, some countries (i.e., Japan) have 280-day school year as opposed to the U.S. 180, and most foreign teachers generally use more effective teaching strategies than overview-and-worksheet. |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 04:52:31 pm Post subject: |
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| You can usually tell you have a good instructor when they interact with the class. Stuff like vivid examples, pacing around the room, or asking you questions to make sure you were paying attention. I forget what that style's called, but I'd image it's more popular in European classes than here. In my highschool, it was mostly grim worksheets, worksheets, worksheets. It really boosts conceptual knowledge, which is the stuff that makes students competitive. |
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Plague
Member
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
Posts: 242
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 06:11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| best teaching method is food+learning imo. I am so much more awake and paying atention if i have something to eat and drink. If im hungry i cant do work. Also the air condioning must be on, cant work when its 90 degrees in the room. |
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IAmACalculator
In a state of quasi-hiatus
Know-It-All
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 1571
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 07:18:55 pm Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: You can usually tell you have a good instructor when they interact with the class. Stuff like vivid examples, pacing around the room, or asking you questions to make sure you were paying attention. I forget what that style's called, but I'd image it's more popular in European classes than here.
[post="75959"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
In Europe, the teachers are paid better than they are in the U.S. (they're actually paid the amount they should be paid). It's rare to find a really good teacher, but when you do find them they really help you learn. |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 18 Apr 2006 07:49:31 pm Post subject: |
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IAmACalculator wrote: In Europe, the teachers are paid better than they are in the U.S.
Actually, according to the New York Times, the salary for a high school teacher in the U.S. with 15 years experience is $36,219, versus the international average of $31,887 [source ] [full text]. Though because U.S. teachers have a heavier classload, they're relatively underpaid. But yes, they are underpaid.
Last edited by Guest on 18 Apr 2006 07:49:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tiberious726
Advanced Member
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 284
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| Posted: 19 Apr 2006 01:18:29 pm Post subject: |
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josefnpat wrote: Differential Integration (Area under a curve). You would need some kind of advance calculus class to work those out by hand.
[post="74527"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
uhmm... integration is simply trying to find the closed form of the anti derivative and therefore can be done by hand; in my calc 2 class in fact we didn't use calculators the whole class; and definate integration is simply pluging values into the indefinate integral
koresho wrote: Tiberious726 wrote: i do agree that calculator make life easier; and are indeed quite useful; what i dislike is when they are used as a replacement for thinking; for actucally understanding the material; my stance is that the material should be taught without calculators at least at first so people understand what is happening; then use the calculators once the material has been mastered; ever wonder why many foriene nations produce math students that are on average better than the average US student (besides cultural differances obviously) many of them cant afford calculators and so must be taught useing paper and pencil
[post="74496"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
haha here you are, saying this, in a forum that ushers along the very thing you don't like.
[post="75951"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
no that isn't what i am saying; i say calculators are indeed very good; very useful tools but they are becoming depended on too much by today's students they should be able to do the problems themself and only after they master the material should they use the shortcut of the calculator
DigiTan wrote: I'd wager the education problem has more to do with how students of all skill levels are lumped together in the same classes; whereas in Europe placement is skill-based. US students are also underperforming in literacy, historical knowledge, and other subjects that have nothing to do with calculators.
[post="75955"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]
yeah; i do admit there are other differances but total dependance on a calcultor to do the math for you rather than knowing how to do it yourself is my my eyes a great problem in the educational system
dont get me wrong i am not "get rid of calculators in the educational system" rather i say that we should teach people math then show them the shortcuts on their calculators; instead of teaching them calculator operations as the primary thing in a math class
Last edited by Guest on 19 Apr 2006 01:19:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Math and Science => Technology & Calculator Open Topic
I don't think he did anything with polynomials.