When(if ever) is it ok, and why?
If it's not ok, how can we peacefully(you know, without blowing up clinics or murdering doctors) reduce their rate?

I think if there are extenuating circumstances(like, say, the mother's life in mortal danger, which is often the case in young teens) it needs to be an option, but the on-demand system we have now is disgusting. However, you can't just ban it completely, because of those few cases where it would be necessary(like life or death situations). I think, one way we could go about this, is making birth-control more accessible, affordable, and mainstream. More birth control means less unplanned pregnancies, which also means less women who'd want to get abortions in the first place. With the demand reduced, you could more easily put regulations on abortion, so only those who have legitimate need of them can get them.

What do you guys think?

I think it's absolutely rediculous that the government wants the right to tell my partner and I what we can and can't do in that situation. If the parents feel that abortion is immoral then they won't have one. Putting limits on who can have one is just wrong. If you're against abortion, than do what DShiz said and work to get birth control cheaper/more accessible. Don't just try to give the government more power and hope they take your side.

@foamy
So if you want to murder someone, the goverment shouldn't limit you? Murdering shouldn't be prohibited?

If a teen is pregnant - thats her fault. She was just stupid and irresponsible. And who has to pay for this now? An innocent child? Shall we murder the poor kid for his partents' stupidity?

If they're not born yet it isn't murder, and if a teen gets pregnant why burden her with a child she doesn't want for the rest of her life?

And I think killing the kid is murdering. It lives, has feelings and is a human like us. It has the same right to live as we have!

And about the teen, the thing was not to get in pregnant. As I said, an innocent small life shouldn't pay for her irresponsibility. After the thing happened, she should put herself together and try to live with it.
Another solution is an orphanage, but not the best.

what about the parents putting limits on the childs life...
also I agree with Floodnik

Even I, an accused troll, will not touch this topic.

No, I absolutely don't see abortion as murder. I don't view life as starting until birth.

And @Floodnik, go have sex, then come back and converse with the rest of us. It is completely possible for a responsible teen to still become pregnant. Condoms are only 97% effective under perfect use. And since we're talking about teens who are probably new to sex, I'd say it's safe to add another 10% (just my guess, not cited) for people who don't know what a condom ripping feels like and people who think it's fine to do it unprotected and then just putting one on before climaxing (and let's not get started on how stupid abstinence-only education is).

Why try to force your moral beliefs on other people, much less have the government do it for you?

wut

So where do you stand on say, IDX?


Nonetheless, a responsible teen who becomes pregnant, became so only because of her own irresponsibility, or her partners. What percentage of teen sex happens under the influence of a mind altering substance, such as alcohol? A quarter? A third? My guess, anecdotally, would probably be closer to half.


If you're in a situation where you don't want to have a pregnancy, than "responsible" sex (temporarily ignoring STIs, and the emotional consequences of having multiple sexual partners) is
a) condoms
b) female birth control medication and/or at least being aware of natural fertility cycles
c) abstaining from alcohol (or other drug) ingestion prior to intercourse.

Is this unrealistic to expect from teenagers? Absolutely. But if you aren't taking those steps, then don't you dare claim that you're being responsible. All it takes is one slip to get you pregnant, and no matter how responsible you are most of the time, you weren't being responsible when it happened. So go do your research. Then come back and tell me how many people you can find out of a thousand who have had an abortion were actually following all of that when they were impregnated.

And finally, if the male partner is the one pressuring for the abortion, then he needs to take responsibility for the fact that his unwillingness to take care of a child puts his girlfriend at seriously increased risk for depression and suicidal tendences.

explain why it doesn't have life before birth.

Yeah... Not touching this one.

Well, that's certainly a tricky one. Since it is PARTIALLY born, it's easy to make a case for banning it. Personally, I think that just banning IDX would be a good borderline compromise.


What you're stating here sounds a lot like date rape. So now you want to punish her with 9 months of pregnancy?


a) as stated, probably around 85% effective under teen use
b) Birth control is absolutely out of the price range for most teens. And natural family planning is difficult even for adults. Relying on that is absolutely irresponsible.
c) The only purpose of this (unless I'm misunderstanding it) is to help make sure the last two points were followed. This hardly counts as a birth control technique. Sleep deprivation could have the same effects.


And, as a teen, she's at a higher risk for postpartum depression if she keeps it. And if the male partner is pressuring for it, then they obviously have very different views on the future of their relationship. I'm sure the relationship counselor they need would help with her depression.

[sorry if I missed anything; I'm on a netbook]

It's not a punishment, it's a natural course of things :)

Your argument about me having sex and then talking fails, because i'm not going to have sex untill I have conditions to maintain my family. When I'm going to do this, I'm gonna be aware of the consequences(well, I don't think these are consequences, isn't having a baby great luck? I'm going to be happy!).

If it takes in energy and responds to stimulus, it's a living thing, and you can't just kill a living thing unless there's a good reason. I'd be willing to entertain the possibility of psychological damage in a teenager(or a rape/incest victim for that matter) as a reason, but simply not wanting to have a kid is not, and that's where I would draw the line.

Fine, then think of that next time you blow out a candle.



The statements you made before showed your lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Me telling you to go have sex was just my smartass way of saying that. I wasn't being serious in the suggestion.

So then what about preemies? Are you saying they only count as being alive because a fluke medical accident caused them to pop out early?


Date rape by legal definition extends to having consensual sex with your wife after a glass of wine. Are we talking legal definition here, or what it actually means to rape someone. Plenty of (read: MOST) teenagers give consent to have sex in irresponsible situations. And no, I don't want to *punish* anyone, but I don't feel they have the right to extinguish a human life to pay for their own mistakes. If you don't want the child plenty of people are willing to adopt.


You're making my point for me. It's absolutely absurd to suggest that teens would use all 3 of those methods EVERY time they have sex. And to be clear, I was suggesting ALL of the above in combination, not any single one of them. So if you feel that all 3 of those in combination still aren't enough for reliable birth control, then please attempt to explain to me what you feel "responsible teen sex" entails, because I sure can't figure it out.

If we legalized gay marriage, that would solve your adoption problem, as we'd be creating a slew of couples who can't have kids by conventional means...

Also, a candle doesn't respond to stimulus, the process of combustion(which you see as the flame) may appear to, but since it's a process, and not a "thing", that precludes my(and the scientific community's) definition of life.

Yes.


So you want the girl to go through the process of pregnancy for a child that she's just going to give up for adoption? She'll most likely be out of school for an extended period of time, out of work for an extended period of time, spending (whether directly or not) more on regular hospital visits and pregnancy supplements, and will suffer through the social consequences of being a teen mother.


Responsible teen sex, in my opinion, entails use of at least one form of contraception (be it the pill or a type of barrier protection). My original point is that even when following these practices, it is still entirely possible to become pregnant. Until there is a widely available form of reliable/affordable/easy-to-use birthcontrol, I don't see banning abortion as an option.