Nice timing Microsoft; my XBox 360 Arcade console died 1 month after the warranty expired 
My wii died the day after the warranty expired, but they fixed it like it was under warranty anyway.
That sucks. Do you still have an N64 so you can play Banjo Twooie?
That sucks. Do you still have an N64 so you can play Banjo Twooie?
TI smote the Beta Testers for their insolence and rested. SynThesIs 14
He doesn't have to wake up, you know. I have a laser, and we have a garbage disposal. - Pintsize
What does the GUI say about his fill level? IT'S OVER 9000!!!
He doesn't have to wake up, you know. I have a laser, and we have a garbage disposal. - Pintsize
What does the GUI say about his fill level? IT'S OVER 9000!!! 
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
Nice timing Microsoft; my XBox 360 Arcade console died 1 month after the warranty expired
They extended the warranty for some RROD situations. Call 'em up and find out if yours is covered.
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
Nice timing Microsoft; my XBox 360 Arcade console died 1 month after the warranty expired
Ouch, I am sorry to hear that. Was it E74 or one of the original RROD problems? 
- Re: RROD
- 29 Apr 2009 06:11:33 pm
- Last edited by Ultimate Dev'r on 29 Apr 2009 06:21:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
KermMartian wrote:
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
Nice timing Microsoft; my XBox 360 Arcade console died 1 month after the warranty expired
Ouch, I am sorry to hear that. Was it E74 or one of the original RROD problems?The original RROD
Kllrnohj wrote:
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
Nice timing Microsoft; my XBox 360 Arcade console died 1 month after the warranty expired
They extended the warranty for some RROD situations. Call 'em up and find out if yours is covered.
It is covered under the extended RROD warranty; they've sent me some packaging materials to ship my 360 to them with and I should be getting it tomorrow
Only problem is it's supposed to take 3 weeks for them to fix it 
Well, glad to hear that it's at least covered and you don't need to spend another few hundred dollars to play your xBox. Kinda sucks that you'll have to wait for at least three weeks though. 
It would actually be <$100 fix; I had a friend of a friend whose 360 was out of warranty and tried to fix it himself; he gave it to me and I fixed it up; the problem is with the GPU either not being soldered on properly or not being cooled adequately (or both); if you're lucky the X-clamp fix will work; otherwise you need a new motherboard (you can get one for under $100 on eBay).
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
It would actually be <$100 fix; I had a friend of a friend whose 360 was out of warranty and tried to fix it himself; he gave it to me and I fixed it up; the problem is with the GPU either not being soldered on properly or not being cooled adequately (or both); if you're lucky the X-clamp fix will work; otherwise you need a new motherboard (you can get one for under $100 on eBay).
It actually comes from the heat expansion/contraction causing the solder points to fail. Nvidia faced the same problem in their notebook GPUs. ATI has moved on to a different soldier that fares better, hence why the 48xx cards can run up to 95c during normal use without suffering from ill effects. (iirc, they switched for the 2xxx series, but I'm not sure on that)
Which can also be solved by better cooling, just pointing out the root cause
Kllrnohj wrote:
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
It would actually be <$100 fix; I had a friend of a friend whose 360 was out of warranty and tried to fix it himself; he gave it to me and I fixed it up; the problem is with the GPU either not being soldered on properly or not being cooled adequately (or both); if you're lucky the X-clamp fix will work; otherwise you need a new motherboard (you can get one for under $100 on eBay).
It actually comes from the heat expansion/contraction causing the solder points to fail. Nvidia faced the same problem in their notebook GPUs. ATI has moved on to a different soldier that fares better, hence why the 48xx cards can run up to 95c during normal use without suffering from ill effects. (iirc, they switched for the 2xxx series, but I'm not sure on that)
Which can also be solved by better cooling, just pointing out the root cause
I already stated what the root cause was; if M$ soldered the GPU down properly it wouldn't disconnect due to temperature differences.
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
I already stated what the root cause was; if M$ soldered the GPU down properly it wouldn't disconnect due to temperature differences.
In this case it is actually ATI (or, well, TSMC, but whatever
), and it isn't that it isn't soldered down properly, its that the solder *breaks*, as in, the ball gets sheared in two. Even if its perfectly soldered, it'll still break 
Kllrnohj wrote:
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
I already stated what the root cause was; if M$ soldered the GPU down properly it wouldn't disconnect due to temperature differences.
In this case it is actually ATI (or, well, TSMC, but whatever
), and it isn't that it isn't soldered down properly, its that the solder *breaks*, as in, the ball gets sheared in two. Even if its perfectly soldered, it'll still break If the chip were soldered down properly with high quality solder a little amount of buckling wouldn't cause it to break the connection.
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
If the chip were soldered down properly with high quality solder a little amount of buckling wouldn't cause it to break the connection.
Er, no, that isn't how it works. The same packaging process is used in everything from GPUs to CPUs over the past decade, it isn't a low quality process by any stretch of the imagination.
If you know of a magical solder that can withstand the stress better than the high lead bumps that are normally used without any drawbacks, I'm sure packaging engineers around the world would love to hear about it
Regardless, neither Microsoft nor ATI actually package (or manufacture) the GPUs.
Kllrnohj wrote:
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
If the chip were soldered down properly with high quality solder a little amount of buckling wouldn't cause it to break the connection.
Er, no, that isn't how it works. The same packaging process is used in everything from GPUs to CPUs over the past decade, it isn't a low quality process by any stretch of the imagination.
If you know of a magical solder that can withstand the stress better than the high lead bumps that are normally used without any drawbacks, I'm sure packaging engineers around the world would love to hear about it
Regardless, neither Microsoft nor ATI actually package (or manufacture) the GPUs.
My experience with soldering BGA chips has shown that a little amount of buckling doesn't break the connections (whether or not that's due to my 1337 soldering skillz and my magical solder or not enough repetitive bending is debatable
).
In other news the delivery of the packaging materials from Microsoft has been delayed
I'd go with not enough reptitive mechanical fatigue if I were you. Try mass-producing reliable electronics and I bet it wouldn't be easy. Then again, given the money and skill they comprise, they should have some creative workarounds by now.
I have heard that wrapping the console in a towel to cause it to overheat and (partially) reflow the solder joints works temporarily. Not that I'd recommend such a thing if you can get it repaired properly.
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
In other news the delivery of the packaging materials from Microsoft has been delayed
[troll]It's a bummer you didn't get Applecare with it....their box comes overnight. OHWAIT
[/troll] 
KermMartian wrote:
I'd go with not enough reptitive mechanical fatigue if I were you. Try mass-producing reliable electronics and I bet it wouldn't be easy. Then again, given the money and skill they comprise, they should have some creative workarounds by now.
They do. They are now using eutectic solder instead of high lead, which requires some extra workarounds to deal with things like electromigration.
@UD: Just curious, but were you perchance working with a 182mm^2 chip?
@Elf: Perhaps, but I'd take delayed and *FREE* over overnight + expensive as hell. I'd also take being able to play games over iLife for my console
benryves wrote:
I have heard that wrapping the console in a towel to cause it to overheat and (partially) reflow the solder joints works temporarily. Not that I'd recommend such a thing if you can get it repaired properly.
Even in theory that's retarded as you'll never get the XBox to run anywhere near hot enough to reflow the solder, not to mention further damaging the console (
to whoever originally posted that technique on the internet). This goes right up there with the Ice Bath fix.
Kllrnohj wrote:
KermMartian wrote:
I'd go with not enough reptitive mechanical fatigue if I were you. Try mass-producing reliable electronics and I bet it wouldn't be easy. Then again, given the money and skill they comprise, they should have some creative workarounds by now.
They do. They are now using eutectic solder instead of high lead, which requires some extra workarounds to deal with things like electromigration.
Are you saying that by using higher quality solder they are alieving the problem of RROD on their XBox 360 consoles?
Kllrnohj wrote:
@UD: Just curious, but were you perchance working with a 182mm^2 chip?
Die-size or package size?
elfprince13 wrote:
[troll]It's a bummer you didn't get Applecare with it....their box comes overnight. OHWAIT :ph34r: [/troll]
I'm sure if I had to send back my 360 as often as you have to send back your apple products I'd want free overnight too
Kllrnohj wrote:
@Elf: Perhaps, but I'd take delayed and *FREE* over overnight + expensive as hell. I'd also take being able to play games over iLife for my console
As long as I'm within the 3 year coverage period it is free
and who doesn't want to be able to organize photos on their 360?
UD: I haven't actually had to send an Apple product in for repair in the decade and a half I've been using them. Most of them outlive their warranties by 6 or 7 years at least. On the other hand, if you get something wacky, like a loose lcd hinge after 2.5 years, they'll either fix it, or, if the part is out of stock, they'll just upgrade you to the current equivalently priced model.
Ultimate Dev'r wrote:
Are you saying that by using higher quality solder they are alieving the problem of RROD on their XBox 360 consoles?
I assume the 360 packaging still uses high lead, but eutectic solder isn't "higher quality" - its just different. AMD and Intel still use high lead solder afaik. Eutectic has its own problems, and can't handle as much current as high lead.
Quote:
Die-size or package size?
That would be die-size. The point of failure are the solder balls between the die and the substrate, which have different expansion coefficients.
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