yeah, but everytime that thing will rumble, think of the battery cost on that. Also, no one has responded to my thoughts on the lack of power in the electric (or the water thing for launching a boat).

"complicated" referring to the ENGINE design, smart one. You've got two engines, plus a mechanism to switch between them. more complicated.


First, I'm dealing with the present, you're dealing with a theoretical state in which companies actually manufacture EVs. If they do, they will be targetting very specific markets, and subject to tons of pressure to vanish. See above. That said, the issue, in a world where car companies WON'T manufacture EVs.
DIY = Do It Yourself. As in, so pick a base car that is roomy and find a way to keep it roomy. People have substituted a row of 25 batteries for a seat, and surely if you pick the right car there'll be space for those batteries.

I'm sorry, did I forget to mention the bit about people pinning a manual transmission into second gear to act as a gear box? Yes, EVs do use gears; a motor is more efficient at lower RPM (Thank you, robotics class!). Get over it.

When I said practical, I meant dealing with what exists in the world. So far as I can tell, everyone else has been dealing with a theoretical state in which car manufacturers will make EVs. They won't; there's not enough spare parts. No air filters, no ignitors... If you don't believe me, why is there so many DIY EVs at EV World?

You missed it the power bit. I dealt with that in gearing and DIY. Again, I doubt companies like Tesla will remain around for long.
As for water, I don't have enough info. Open your mind, and answer it yourself. The motor and controller can be kept under the hood. Batteries are kept anywhere there's something solid beneath them, eg. the hood, where a car bench is, in the trunk... If you can say how much of a car gets wet when launching a boat, there's a small chance someone could address that.

how much of a car get wet? Depends on launch, boat, car, trailer, weather, water levels and all that fun stuff.

And yet that obviously is having no affect on the state of hybrids, as they are much more plentiful than EVs...



NOOoo! Really? DIY = Do it Yourself? Never would have guessed that That was part of the whole "not addressing my issue", as over 99% of the people in this country WILL NOT DIY their own EV. Lets stick with whats realistic here



Wow... Guess you *didn't* hear the clue train, but thats ok, its coming around again. EVs use gears, correct, but you DO NOT SHIFT THEM. When was the last time an EV shifted from first, to second, to third, to forth to get on the highway? Or how about down-shifting from 4th to 3rd to pass/accelerate? Oh wait, they DON'T. Did you miss the whole "in the same sense as a manual in a gas car" part? No, seriously, did you just decide to ignore that? Got lazy and felt like skipping some words?



...wtf? "not enough spare parts"? what the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you trying to say they won't make an EV because they aren't expensive enough to repair? Have you not seen TV ADs lately where no/little repairs and massive 100,000 mile warranties are SELLING POINTS and not LIABILITIES? Never mind that EVs would have their own assortment of parts that would need to be maintained/replaced over time. They don't manufacturer EVs because they aren't practical to an overwhelming majority of buyers. This isn't an "we can't make money off them after we sell them" issue, its a "there is no demand" issue. This entire topic has been about whether or not EVs are practical. (oh, and I suggest you like up the definition of "practical", because it has absolutely nothing to do with what exists in what time frame)

@Kerm's subwoofer idea: Uh... not nearly the same sound... I'd rather not have my car sound like a video game when I'm driving it (Besides, then the woofer can't be used for music )

Yes.
For a little while, California had a law requiring a certain percent of cars sold being zero-emission. Car manufacturers would not *sell* them, only *lease*. The same companies would not let customers buy/lease an EV when the law was repealed (even took EVs away from current users), and all the EVs were being removed/disposed of. People were begging for them back! It might have had <100 mi range, might have been a two-seater, but people wanted it. You say that was in California, I say so the effects are more widespread when you make EVs better.
Further, think about it: If a company can either sell a car once, and then make money off a car that's depecrating by selling parts needed to fix it up, or they can sell a car once and not get any more money off of it for 5-10 years when all the batteries start wearing out, which are they going to do? Hopefully there's an obvious agreement there...

In fact, they had a segment in the movie with an EV1 repair mechanic. He compared a huge heap of the parts, oil, filters, etc etc that need to be regularly changed on a conventional internal combustion vehicle versus the yearly maintenance for an EV1: wheel rotation and wiper fluid. Done.

Kllrnohj, you should really see the movie before you come to conclusions that clearly stem from a rather *cough* conservative point of view.

My previous post (And kerm's) should deal with these issues, but for the sake of beating the dead horse...

Yeah, 'cause manufacturers won't make EVs (see above), and people don't /won't DIY. I don't know whether that is constant, though; there are EV conversion classes...

I am being realistic. Unless you buy Tesla, you have to DIY. Again, see above.


'Cause DIYers choose not to. That doesn't mean a manual-transmission EV is impossible, hence my comment about the manual transmissions pinned into second. See above before attacking DIY, or how people won't like it.

No, its a function of the motor. You don't need multiple gears for an electric motor like you do for a gas one. Its not a matter of choice, but of physics. A multi-geared transmission is required for gas, and not needed for electric. Besides, if you are going for efficiency, you'd choose an CVT anyway

Neither your post NOR kerm's dealt with the issue at all. There just aren't any responses because neither of you provided anything substantial that addresses any of the issues EVs face. Maintenance is ultimately unknown at this time for both EVs and hybrids. REGULAR maintenance is known, but the durability of the electric motor, battery, and other parts of an EV and hybrid are unknown. Besides, you are forgetting that the batteries will only last so long before they need to be replaced, and that isn't a terribly long time either. You keep saying that manufacturers just won't make them (and only state maintanence as a reason), but the fact of the matter is EVs are flawed in their current state. There is no way you can dodge this. EVs are NOT practical to any group large enough to warrant the time and expense to go into a production EV.

But for the sake of beating a dead EV (er, horse), I will list all the points that must be resolved (in no particular order):

1) Range
2) Charge time (as in it needs to be short enough that you can wait for it - like 5 to 10 minutes, if that)
3) A way to recharge it (eg, "outlets" at gas stations)
4) Capabilities (off-road, towing, trunk space, etc...)

And guess what? No answers for any of those currently exist (aside from #4 - but only in DIY form, which is only passively acceptable)

Oh, and I was browsing EVWorld.com and came across this concerning DIY:



costs $10,000 and only has a range 20-40 miles? That can't even get me to school and back. And that seems to be common - look through the photo album, not many break the 60 mile range mark



Again, not at all acceptable. DIY isn't looking anything even close to a decent option

true, if it took me 20 seconds to get to 60 mph, I would yell at my car. I can go one house down and I am usually at about 55mph, a lot better acceleration. Also, proegssilb, you said I could still use my manual transmission with a electric, just pin it in second. WHY? If I want to enjoy the shifting of manual, I need to press in the clutch, ease up on gas, move shifter, move clutch to start of grab, bring up gas, and release clutch. Btw, that entire process takes less than a second usually (even from second to third, and that is farthest the gear shifer moves).

Yes, I did say that. I'm also working on a post that re-hashes that issue.

And me and rivereye are trying to tell you that the two (manual w/ gas vs manual w/ electric) are not at all comparable, and that your "just stick it in second" is the same as having an automatic. The whole point of a manual is to have to shift a bunch of times. Don't bother "re-hasing" that, as it is NOT the same AT ALL

Aye, and what I said in person easily a month ago is not the same as what I'm saying here. .

It not be the same. Proegssilb, you don't drive, so you wouldn't get it.

How many times do I have to stress the speed and acceleration these suckers are capable of?! They're great movers, very smooth and fast.

I like how the only people arguing for electric are the ones who don't drive and never have driven an actual car (Kerm & proeg). I'm sorry, but you guys just don't get it. Rivereye and Kllrnohj are spot on -- EV's are incredibly impractical when it comes to performance & infrastructure. Nobody wants to hack their car, nobody wants to plug it in and charge it, no one wants to be tied down by a 100 mile driving range, or even 300 mile driving range. Having to make sure the car is refueled over the intervals by plugging it in would be extremely annoying.

I for one don't drive, mostly for the reason that there's no need for me to drive (public transportation is an infinitely more economic alternative). You don't have to hack your car or send it to one of the companies that will do the mods for you if the automotive manufacturers just go ahead and manufacture the cars they've already created, designed, and perfected a manufacturing infrastructure for.

They won't. See above. Heck, iirc, manufacturers never put EVs in mass production.

And I'm considering learning to drive just so I can drive an EV (How's that for backward?). Heck, maybe I'll find a way to keep the stick shift.

Or they don't get it, or none of us get it... What's the difference between a needed stick shift and an optional stick shift that is present? Whether the enginge makes noise?

Infrastructure I'll believe. Performance seems to be primarily dependent on the batteries, evidenced by the fact that people replace the batteries, even before they wear out, but not the motor.

Then why the albulm of EVs that go 20-60miles that have been "hacked"? Or do they not count?

Battery issue. I either had commented or was planning on commenting about how that's not an inherent issue, but tied to which batteries you use. Regardless, everyone is using lead-acid batteries. I'm curious about lithium-ion, but they are supposedly too expensive, but I haven't seen anything even considering them.
I had another post going, but it got lost in cyberspace, so we'll just work off of this...

They don't count. Why? They are what is called a "statistical anomaly". You say there are a lot there, but according to the site, it is listing less than 1,000 vehicles listed. Ferrari could have sold that many Envo's, which cost $250,000. In vehicle terms, 1,000 is pathetically small (or if its an exotic, exceedingly rare).

@proegssilb: 1) stop saying see above. Why? Because I've already disbuted your 'above' argument(s)
2) it is not a spare parts issue, get over that.

@Kerm: That 20 seconds to get to 60mpg was a quote from EVWorld.com, and is what you can expect from a DIY EV. What they are CAPABLE of and what you can EXPECT are two very different things. A gas engine powered car is capable of reaching speeds of 250mph and still be street legall, but you can't expect any car you can afford to be able to do that. See the distinction?

Unless there is a revolutionary leap in battery technology, we won't see good selling production EV car. Ever.