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SniperOfTheNight
Advanced Member
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 260
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 Posted: 14 Dec 2003 06:48:26 pm Post subject: |
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| But the capture of Saddam might let some people relize that it's not worth trying to fight for him because he has been caught. Also, people who have been scarred that if they denounce Saddam that he would come back and target them, now they can finally denounce him and show full support for troops. |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 14 Dec 2003 06:54:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Read the quote again. That happened after Saddam was caught. I think they're not fighting for Saddam but for religion (you know, the Jihad/Crusade/Holy war idea?). |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 14 Dec 2003 07:33:45 pm Post subject: |
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I for one am glad to see the operation succede after such a short time. I think this event not only displays the courage and diligence or our armed forces, but also says alot about the determination of the collective Free World. Choosing to commit troops to the Iraqi Freedom plan was an extremely risky move, so I'm glad to see the effort has finally paid off. Perhaps next time, the rest of our allies won't be so reluctant to support the U.S. when it comes to ousting oppression.
Quote: In the US, I'm pretty sure no one would vote for Bush
Don't be too certain. I've followed Bush's policy making ever since he won the governor's seat back in Texas and I know him to be a much more intellegent and respectable person than most people are willing to believe. The republican party has always aligned itself with fundamental American/Western principles, and given today's events I'd say he'll have no trouble securing next year's election.
Quote: Anyway, I doubt it'll make any difference he's caught. Except maybe to Saddam himself.
I'd say it probably won't make much a difference in the short time, but it probably will throughout the next 10 years or so. In these modern times, wars are also fought on the psychological front, and although Saddam is only 1 man, his capture symbolizes a massive victory of the Free World over Dictatorship. Once Saddam's actions go punished (and they will), it will serve as an example of what happens to those who seek to harm the US and its allies through terror. To --like SniperOfTheNight said-- convice people that dictators are not worth fighting for. |
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Babyboy
Advanced Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 499
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| Posted: 14 Dec 2003 08:44:56 pm Post subject: |
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This post is the first thing that i heard of his capture 
Good, now shoot him and throw him back
OR, the us could make some money... offer rocks, $100 a pop, take a shot at saddam in a cage  PH34R 7|-|3 R0(KZ |
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SniperOfTheNight
Advanced Member
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 260
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| Posted: 14 Dec 2003 10:13:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Although many people feel like htey should just kill Saddam, remember, an eye for an eye isn't how society works. We will give him the type of trial no one in his country would ever receive, and find him guilty. He will get a taste of democracy. |
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David
The XORcist!
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Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 268
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 03:15:31 pm Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: Choosing to commit troops to the Iraqi Freedom plan was an extremely risky move, so I'm glad to see the effort has finally paid off. Perhaps next time, the rest of our allies won't be so reluctant to support the U.S. when it comes to ousting oppression.
The primary reason for the war was Saddam's supposed possession of weapons of mass destruction, remember? Of course it's good that Iraq has been liberated, but I think that still doesn't justify a war. If the rest of world would act as arbitrary as the US did in the Iraq conflict, then we would have a total world disorder. |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 05:12:46 pm Post subject: |
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DigiTan wrote: I'd say it probably won't make much a difference in the short time, but it probably will throughout the next 10 years or so. In these modern times, wars are also fought on the psychological front, and although Saddam is only 1 man, his capture symbolizes a massive victory of the Free World over Dictatorship. Once Saddam's actions go punished (and they will), it will serve as an example of what happens to those who seek to harm the US and its allies through terror. To --like SniperOfTheNight said-- convice people that dictators are not worth fighting for.
The suicide attackers are not fighting just for their dictator. They are fighting because of an extremist interpretation of Islam that says they will go to heaven for killing an 'infidel'.
Quote: the world would be better off without Democrats
Actually, the world would be far better off without any political parties that oppose each other the whole time instead of facing real problems. |
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Jedd
1980 Pong World Champion
Elite
Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 823
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 05:51:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the reason we care shows the greatness of the US. True, we could just let them deal with their own problems, but the thing about the US is that we want the world to be a better place. In the past all great nations have ignored the problems of other countries, but US is different. The violence and hatred and war itself will never stop, and we can't make a perfect world. But we can make a BETTER world. |
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Adm.Wiggin
aka Tianon
Know-It-All
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 1874
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 06:53:52 pm Post subject: |
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Ha, you guys REALLY think George W. Bush cares?
the truth of the matter is, he doesnt give a **** about anyone but himself! He thinks he has all power, so he can waste our US soldiers lives while he goes and has a little war with Iraq! |
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Adm.Wiggin
aka Tianon
Know-It-All
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 1874
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 07:03:58 pm Post subject: |
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i have no problem with fighting countries because we oppose them, or they oppose our allys or something like that, but just fighting terrorism? that is just plain stupid, cause the war will last forever.
Muslims DO really truly believe in the same god as Christians, but they call him Allah is the only difference... |
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NETWizz
Byte by bit
Bandwidth Hog
Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 2369
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 07:41:49 pm Post subject: |
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I would almost guess that within a year or two he will be released.
You see, it is all political, and the USA does a log of shady stuff, but we are still much more open than other countries.
However, we must play the game of secrecy and politics. |
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468
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| Posted: 15 Dec 2003 07:45:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think the government's reasons are genuinely limited to national security, just because there's no evidence to indicate otherwise. From what I've seen so far, the war does no more for Christianity than it does for American music, cuisine, or pop culture. If Christianity has an influence there, it's because people are discovering it on their own accord.
As for the war being justified, I say once more we should look at our future in the long term. And the long term shows that the world is missing one dictator, our armed forces have brought a timely end to another brutal regime, and the Free World has secured a new foothold for democracy. If it were up to me there would have been no wars to begin with; people the world over would be able to at least respect each others differences and settle disputes through purely diplomatic methods. Unfortunantly, this never applies. Call it 'failed diplomacy'. Call it the 'human condition', but something tells me we'd be at war with Iraq no matter what happened a year ago. And history shows that isolationism is no barrier. Not really a matter of "If", but a matter of "When".
Will this make Iraq any safer? My hunches say 'probably not'. At least not right now. Like Sir Robin said, the suicide attackers fight for other reasons too, so we shouldn't expect to see any white flags spring up overnight. It'll at least help national security since they now lack leadership.
Many will argue that the war is still a failure for lack of the "smoking gun". I say, the war was justified because we have our trigger men. I either case, I hope to see things out there wind down out there so our solders can finally return home. |
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Matt
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Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Posts: 169
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 02:21:06 pm Post subject: |
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Jedd wrote: I think the reason we care shows the greatness of the US. True, we could just let them deal with their own problems, but the thing about the US is that we want the world to be a better place. In the past all great nations have ignored the problems of other countries, but US is different. The violence and hatred and war itself will never stop, and we can't make a perfect world. But we can make a BETTER world.
You really think other countries really want the US to come in and deal with their problems? Probably not. Take a look at Afghanistan - have things gotten any better there? NO. Also, does the US really care? I think that your reasoning is circular - you say the US is better because it cares, and it cares because it's so much better. Anyway, you've probably (like most Americans) never been in any other country, and only say America is the best because you were born there and because you take everyone's word for it (I'm not saying it's not best, but I'm not saying it's best, either. I'm saying make your own decision about it instead of taking it for granted).
Quote: You see, it is all political, and the USA does a log of shady stuff, but we are still much more open than other countries.
Are you sure about that? Until you spend at least a year in several other countries, you can't say anything about how open they are. As a matter of fact, I don't think the US is particularly open.
Quote: George W. Bush does care. Oh and the the truth of the matter is, he doesnt give a **** about anyone but himself!
Have you noticed you're contradicting yourself? |
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Arcane Wizard
`semi-hippie`
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 8993
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 04:07:11 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: He's a lot better than Bill Clinton could ever be. Bill Clinton was just a sissy, and had no idea what he was doing. Do you even know what Clinton did in his 8 years as a president?
Quote: every political party should be gone And have a single supreme ruler? Yeah, worked wonders for Germany after the first world war.
Quote: Say you were Saddam, would you give up everything, because some person decided you had to, or would go to war with you. If I where Saddam? No, but that's because if I was Saddam I would do the same things because I'd also have his line of thought.
Countries that faced that same question and said yes now form alliances, don't forget that. |
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Jeffrey
Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 212
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 05:43:12 pm Post subject: |
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My views on the war/Saddam/previous posts:
I believe that, while preemptive, the war with Iraq was ineluctable. Some day some stupid leader of ours would come along and try to pick a fight. Too bad it happened so soon. The war was not morally right, nor did Bush have any "righteous" intentions in invading Iraq, he only inadvertently removed an inhumane leader from office. Although a nice thing, the removal of Saddam does not begin to defray the physical and economical costs of this unnecessary conflict. Only if Iraq posed a direct threat to the health of the citizens of the United States or any other country in the world would this invasion have been justified. And, as of now, there is no evidence of any such threat.
I don't like Saddam. I don't think many people do. But is it really worth hundreds of lives to expel the leader of foreign country? I sympathize with the Kurdish people of northern Iraq who were persecuted by the harsh Sunni Muslims. However it is not the place of the United States to correct this problem. It should be a world effort, fought through peace talks and negotiations.
This brings up another controversial discussion: what happens if the negotiations fail? France, Russia, and Germany may not have wanted to enter a conflict, maybe because of economical reasons or other unknown motive, however is it the place of one country to judge whether another group of people should be invaded? I think not. We are one human race, and the United states invading Iraq is analogous to a bully picking a fight on the smaller bully. Either way the fighting is unwarranted and wrong. Another country could justify an invasion attempt on the United States simply by stating that the U.S. had violated another country's rights. Iraq was not a bad country; it was spoiled by several people who, with complete prejudice, harmed their own countrymen.
Quote: WHAT? George W. Bush does care. He is a strong Christian and prays for the people of America and for all the troops everywhere!!! Com'on he secretly went over to Iraq to support them and give a speech, did you know that! He did that to let them know that he supports them and CARES for them! Oh and the the truth of the matter is, he doesnt give a **** about anyone but himself!" Thats because he puts God before anybody/anything first! I support our President!!!
Problems with the above statement:
1. How can you assume that Bush is a "nice guy"? When is the last time you have met him? Purely nieve. I am not saying that you must assume that all politicians are evil, but generally they would not be politicians if they were not selfish and wanted their own way.
2. Most Christians are good. Most Christians are great. I am a Christian, and I am good (I suppose). From my belief, however, just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they are right and good. They can pray all they want for world peace and the welfare of the people of their country, yet they don't have to mean it. (Do the Catholic Church scandals come to mind?)
3. He went to Iraq for a speech. WOW!!! I did know that. It made me dislike him even more. Political propaganda. I wonder if he wants to be president again next year?
Overall, the president can do all the nice things he wants, but that doesn't mean that he is a good person. He may be visiting troops just to gain support for his next election. Hey, look at this, he might have faked the capture of Saddam. He might have found a Saddam look alike, shaved him, took some "DNA samples", faked the results, and come forth with glorious news that, indeed, our wonderful president has captured the "rat". Same could be true with the Private Lynch case. Was it necessary to video tape the whole thing? Propaganda. It is sad some people are too nieve to believe this.
On the other hand, and this is somewhat contradictory, Bush may be right. He may know somehting we don't. Maybe we would make the same decisions if we had his information. However we cannot assume that our president is always for the good of the people. I believe Clinton was a good president. The economy was good and life was good. The biggest problem of the Clinton administration was a scandal that no one should have listened to.
One might say that I am not patriotic. I am patriotic. May I present an excerpt from the diccionary:
Code:
[B]patriotism[/B]
\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country. --Berkley.
I meet the requirements of a "patriot". I love my country. I would die defending it and its people, not invading another country on the whim of my leader. Yes, this country is great, and I live for it, too bad the leaders here suck.
-A proud citizen of the United States, one not brainwashed by Bush
P.S. Never discount conspiracy theories.
Last edited by Guest on 16 Dec 2003 05:45:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Adm.Wiggin
aka Tianon
Know-It-All
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 1874
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 05:43:41 pm Post subject: |
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Arcane Wizard wrote: Quote: He's a lot better than Bill Clinton could ever be. Bill Clinton was just a sissy, and had no idea what he was doing.
Do you even know what Clinton did in his 8 years as a president?
i agree with Arcane Wizard on this one. |
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Jeffrey
Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 212
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 05:50:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I agree with you. Clinton was great. Maybe it was because he was presidnet from when I was three to age 11 and that time is kinda happy-go-lucky, but he seemed cool to me.
Another thing: if Bush were "such a nice guy" and was rallying the troops in Iraq, why doesn't he BRING THEM HOME??? They are going over there for a year. These people have lives. If you are such a great person, Bush, wuit sending guys over there and bring some back!!! |
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AlienCC
Creative Receptacle!
Know-It-All
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1927
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| Posted: 16 Dec 2003 10:44:48 pm Post subject: |
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A few things about Clinton...
(*) He much like Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. also made several comments about how Saddam was a terroist threat to the world with possesion of weapons of mass destruction. (Why must everyone turn and ignore this cold hard fact?)
(*) The economy was good before he got into office due in large effect to the efforts of Bush Sr., and Regan. The economy was in the crapper when his 8 years were up.
(*) He was more of an actor then a president putting on a show and speech rather then producing action and leading our country in a true forward motion toward progress.
A few things about Bush...
(*) He entered office on the downward spin of economics.
(*) He has since turned economics around to becoming better, while still not as good as things once were.
(*) He is devoted to military efforts to increase national security, and decrease world terrorist threats.
Finally a couple things about Saddams capture.
(*) The bomb went off after his capture, yet before the announcement.
(*) He is set to be tried for war crimes and sentenced by the Iraqis, to whom he did wrong for so long.
In conclusion, I have been alive long enough to view the rule and reign of a few presidents of the U.S., so far I have been more pleased with what Bush Jr. has done regardless of all the negative politics flying around about him then I have with his immediate predecessor. Nobody is perfect, especially in politics.
--AlienCC |
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |
Super Elite (Last Title)
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328
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| Posted: 17 Dec 2003 02:43:34 pm Post subject: |
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AlienCC wrote: A few things about Clinton...
(*) He much like Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. also made several comments about how Saddam was a terroist threat to the world with possesion of weapons of mass destruction. (Why must everyone turn and ignore this cold hard fact?)
Where is the evidence he had weapons of mass destruction or that he'd do anything with them if he had them? Many other countries have had weapons of mass destruction without blowing other countries up.
Quote: (*) The economy was good before he got into office due in large effect to the efforts of Bush Sr., and Regan. The economy was in the crapper when his 8 years were up.
While true, the economy isn't necessarily related. Contrary to most people's opinions, the president is not the one who makes most economic decisions.
Quote: (*) He was more of an actor then a president putting on a show and speech rather then producing action and leading our country in a true forward motion toward progress.
Who isn't?
Quote: A few things about Bush...
(*) He entered office on the downward spin of economics.
(*) He has since turned economics around to becoming better, while still not as good as things once were.
Economics has to become better sometime. Plus, as I mentioned, it may not be his doing.
Quote: (*) He is devoted to military efforts to increase national security, and decrease world terrorist threats.
Have the world terrorist threats really decreased? There isn't even any proof Saddam had anything to do with terrorists.
Presidents and nice people are contradictory terms. To become President, one cannot be 'a nice guy'. You must focus your life on that one thing, which nearly always reflects unfavorably on your character.
Quote: Bill Clinton was just a sissy, and had no idea what he was doing.
Who does? I do think most people actively involved in politics have a feeble idea of what they're doing. It's human.
Last edited by Guest on 17 Dec 2003 02:44:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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