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Lionel Debroux


Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: 20 Sep 2009 01:18:21 am    Post subject:

I do agree that there's a waste of opportunities here, but I tend to blame it on TI's side, not on the programming communities' ;)

Quote:
Now that the keys are public knowledge, why not make the case that these unlocked devices only broaden the appeal of TIs?

Perhaps because there's evidence that don't give a damn anymore.
Look: for years, we've made the case that despite their protections - all of which proved to be inefficient, all the more TI kept introducing new flaws in the OS as the version number of AMS progressed - what made the success in the marketplace of TI's calculators was their relative programmability and hackability. It's easier to program on TI-Z80 calculators and TI-68k calculators than it is on most models of other calculator manufacturers.
And now, what ? They've released the locked-down, undocumented Nspire crap, which still has sub-par BASIC programming capabilities (even with a couple of years and multiple OS releases after the introduction of the models !) and, to date, no ASM programming capabilities. They have negated what made the success in the marketplace of their calculators for at least eight years (introduction of the 92+ -> introduction of the Nspire, i.e. 1998-2006) !


For years, TI didn't listen to feedback, and their OS kept worsening. AMS 2.08 and 2.09 for 89, which use 64 KB more Flash than AMS 2.05-, because of just several hundred bytes occupied on that sector, were released not too long before the 89T came out (it's not hard to think that this was done on purpose...). The code quality of AMS 3.xx has seen another jump downwards, with a toolchain that cannot even generate PC-relative jumps to subroutines anymore, yielding additional waste of dozens of kilobytes of Flash memory...
With the locked-down Nspire crap, TI has spat in the face of the programmers' community.
TI keeps spitting in our face with those DMCA takedowns and C&D about keys belonging to models they had abandoned (TI-Cares had become silent for a while, which was problematic for those who had embraced TI's FlashApp technology !), because threats are not a sane way to interact with a developer community. It's much worse than consistently ignoring community feedback that the OS' code quality sucks (inefficient algorithms compiled by a crappy toolchain - Greg, remember how much faster Samuel Stearley's reimplementation of next_expression_index() is ?).
Wonder we aren't polite anymore ? ;)


Quote:
if someone modifies their OS, TI risks loosing acceptance on standardized tests and even in the classroom...

TI losing acceptance on standardized tests would be a proof of incompetence of the standardized tests' regulation bodies. The calculators had already been hackable enough for years, through third-party ASM programs and FlashApps, to add math, physics features or whatever. If equity is what the standardized tests' regulation bodies are truly concerned about, then they shouldn't have allowed TI-Z80 and TI-68k calculators in the first place.
Modifying their copyrighted OS, though actively desirable (if nothing else, to improve the code quality), is illegal in most Western countries, which means they would be able to sue any citizen of such countries who tries to do that. Being a French citizen, if I ever did that (e.g. to fix something that has bugged me for more than six years, by replacing DrawStr with a > 5x faster implementation - even on AMS 1.xx, DrawStr was significantly slower than it could be, and the very rarely used font redefinition capability of AMS 2.00+ has made the routine more than twice slower...), I'd keep the modifications for my personal usage.


Last edited by Guest on 20 Sep 2009 01:26:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2


Super Elite (Last Title)


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468

Posted: 20 Sep 2009 02:32:43 am    Post subject:

One of the roadblocks here is we're only thinking like programmers, not their legal teams or project management. Companies don't just water down their products for nothing, they do it to dodge expected liabilities. NSpire's restrictions were a huge slap considering this is the same firm that once outsourced projects to the original Detached Solutions crew. What happened between now and then? And who is charge of these decisions? Unless we're content to have more restrictions and less functionality, these are questions we'd better get answered. We can prattle on about the revision levels and upsetting tech specs--but TI clearly considers it a dollars & cents matter more than anything. Long story short: this is our chance to take a page from DS's book and open a dialog. If nothing else, it would satisfy the curiosity of many calc fans. Cool
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DrDnar


Member


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 116

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 07:40:54 pm    Post subject:

LOLZ TI ALL YOUR FACTOR ARE BELONG TO US!!!!!

I got the keys for Nspire! Shh, don't tell TI! Very Happy No, can't say how :)

Nspire key:
p=446561722054493A2054686973206B65792069732066616B65212020
q=41726520796F7572206C617779657273207265616C6C7920736F2073747570696420617320746F
20737565206F76657220746869733F
n=596F7520686176656E277420646F6E6520616E797468696E6720746F2068656C70207374756465
6E742D70726F6772616D6D6572732073696E63652074686520534B4420776173206C617374207570
6
46174656420696E20323030332E

e=49
d=536F2069742773207469742D666F722D746174207468617420776520666163746F72656420796F
7572206B6579732E20576520686164206E6F2063686F6963652E

Nspire-CAS key:
p=416C736F2C20776861742773207769746820746865205553423F20416E7920646F63756D656E74
6174696F6E206F6E2069743F
q=496620796F7520646F63756D656E74656420746861742C207765206D69676874206265206D6F72
652077696C6C696E67206E6F7420746F2073637265772077697468206F746865722073747566663F
2
0555342206973207665727920757
n=36566756C2D2D2D616E6420697420646F65736E277420656E61626C65206368656174696E67206
F6E2074657374732E2057687920646F6E277420796F752072656C6561736520616E7920646F63756
D
656E746174696F6E3F204C696B652C20657665723F

e=49
d=57652077696C6C206861636B20746865204E737069726520666F722074686520736F6C65207075
72706F7365206F662067657474696E672061637475616C2070726F6772616D6D696E6720666F7220
6
9742E203A70


So now we can run the Nspire CAS OS on the Nspire and make the 84 emulator actually run our software!
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calc84maniac


Elite


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 770

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 09:42:03 pm    Post subject:

[quote name='Dr. D'nar' post='136751' date='Sep 21 2009, 08:40 PM']LOLZ TI ALL YOUR FACTOR ARE BELONG TO US!!!!!

I got the keys for Nspire! Shh, don't tell TI! Very Happy No, can't say how :)

Nspire key:
p=446561722054493A2054686973206B65792069732066616B65212020
q=41726520796F7572206C617779657273207265616C6C7920736F2073747570696420617320746F
20737565206F76657220746869733F
n=596F7520686176656E277420646F6E6520616E797468696E6720746F2068656C70207374756465
6E742D70726F6772616D6D6572732073696E63652074686520534B4420776173206C617374207570
6
46174656420696E20323030332E

e=49
d=536F2069742773207469742D666F722D746174207468617420776520666163746F72656420796F
7572206B6579732E20576520686164206E6F2063686F6963652E

Nspire-CAS key:
p=416C736F2C20776861742773207769746820746865205553423F20416E7920646F63756D656E74
6174696F6E206F6E2069743F
q=496620796F7520646F63756D656E74656420746861742C207765206D69676874206265206D6F72
652077696C6C696E67206E6F7420746F2073637265772077697468206F746865722073747566663F
2
0555342206973207665727920757
n=36566756C2D2D2D616E6420697420646F65736E277420656E61626C65206368656174696E67206
F6E2074657374732E2057687920646F6E277420796F752072656C6561736520616E7920646F63756
D
656E746174696F6E3F204C696B652C20657665723F

e=49
d=57652077696C6C206861636B20746865204E737069726520666F722074686520736F6C65207075
72706F7365206F662067657474696E672061637475616C2070726F6772616D6D696E6720666F7220
6
9742E203A70


So now we can run the Nspire CAS OS on the Nspire and make the 84 emulator actually run our software![/quote]
Nice try, but no.
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Eeems


Advanced Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 277

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 09:47:09 pm    Post subject:

so it's not the right one?
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calc84maniac


Elite


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 770

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 09:50:55 pm    Post subject:

The Nspire stuff doesn't work in the same way as with the other calcs. We don't even know how it works.
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Eeems


Advanced Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 277

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 09:57:59 pm    Post subject:

ah ok...that's too bad..:/
you have been summoned to irc calc84
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JoeYoung


Advanced Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 316

Posted: 21 Sep 2009 10:27:52 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
LOLZ TI ALL YOUR FACTOR ARE BELONG TO US!!!!!


wtf why am I quoting that?

I totally said that first, on #tcpa, WEEKS AGO. check the logs Razz
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simplethinker
snjwffl


Active Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 700

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 03:00:09 pm    Post subject:

I was under the impression that the keys for the nSpire were 1024-bit (I think it was somewhere in this thread, or at least I got that from misreading something in this thread).
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2


Super Elite (Last Title)


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468

Posted: 22 Sep 2009 04:46:46 pm    Post subject:

I thought so too. Speaking of number facts, look out for you postcount, simplethinker! You have the mark!

Last edited by Guest on 22 Sep 2009 04:47:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mapar007


Advanced Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2008
Posts: 365

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 12:14:59 pm    Post subject:

So do I. But how would you factor a key if you don't even know the encryption algorithm?
This is definitely "security through obscurity".
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DrDnar


Member


Joined: 28 Aug 2009
Posts: 116

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 01:05:34 pm    Post subject:

You people suck at getting a hint.
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Graphmastur


Advanced Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 360

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 04:48:28 pm    Post subject:

[quote name='Dr. D'nar' post='136779' date='Sep 23 2009, 10:05 AM']You people suck at getting a hint.[/quote]
Wow.

And what hint is this? If it's that TI doesn't want us messing with the Nspire, its not that we don't get it, but we don't really care.

Speaking of which, where can I find a lot of information on the NSpire?
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brandonw


Advanced Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 455

Posted: 23 Sep 2009 06:12:05 pm    Post subject:

There is a plan forming to fight TI's position on this.

Last edited by Guest on 23 Sep 2009 06:13:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kylekatarn


Newbie


Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 6

Posted: 25 Sep 2009 02:54:18 pm    Post subject:

The keys are now in "public domain" ; )

Wikileaks.org has the first released key. I tried submitting wikileaks the full pack (all known factorizations) but the document was never published.
Anyway, you can find them, for example, in thepiratebay.org (via *.torrent)

Say hello to streisand's effect!

TI can't stop the community. If TI doesn't want to become "the enemy", it better start showing some respect. We buy calcs, the only valid license is WTFPL

cheers to all!
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simplethinker
snjwffl


Active Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 700

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 02:54:17 pm    Post subject:

It looks like the Wikimedia Foundation got a DMCA notice for the Wikipedia article on the key factoring. Here's their response (for some reason it was edited out, but can still be found in the page history).

The only thing that strikes me as odd is that, considering the shaky legal ground TI's claims are already on, they sent the notice to one of the founders of the Electronic Frontier Foundation Neutral
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calcdude84se


Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 207

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 03:54:41 pm    Post subject:

If you read the DMCA notice, you will (have) notice(d) that it says/said that the keys should not be distributed because the calculator operating systems
Quote:
use encryption to effectively control access to the operating system code
. Is it just me, or can we already access the OS code via ROM Dumpers and disassemblers? Either TI is stupid, or they mean some other kind of access. If TI is being stupid here, then they are being very stupid, because it seems like they would be invoking the DMCA without a good reason. And if the DMCA is like any other law/act, then there are penalties for false invocation...
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2


Super Elite (Last Title)


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 04:50:44 pm    Post subject:

Whoa! This thread is just bringing out the best in people! :|

Well, one thing to consider is nothing has actually gone to court to be penalized as of yet. And as long as it stays that way, TI will no doubt continue to use DCMAs with relative impunity as they evaluate their legal options. They're not stupid. Despirate maybe. With the key public knowledge, these notices are their only leverage against it actually being used...and we all seem to agree even that has backfired so far.
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TheStorm


Calc Guru


Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 1233

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 05:06:21 pm    Post subject:

There is a lawsuit currently in progress with BrandonW and a few to the other people who received the notices through the EFF see http://www.eff.org/ for info. Though I'm not 100% sure on the details I sure TI is going to have some consequences for their false notices.
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DigiTan
Unregistered HyperCam 2


Super Elite (Last Title)


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 4468

Posted: 30 Sep 2009 05:47:08 pm    Post subject:

Are people getting actual subpoenas or just threats? From what I gather of the articles, the C&Ds are paper tigers.

Last edited by Guest on 30 Sep 2009 05:58:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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