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critor


Member


Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 132

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 03:24:59 pm    Post subject:

calcdude84se wrote:
Speaking of running a different OS, would it be possible to run say, os 2.48, on a normal ti-84+(SE)?
I'm surprised (and annoyed) that TI hasn't released any updates past 2.43 for the real (non-emulated) ti-84+(SE)



Possible: yes.
Easy: no

The TI-84+nSpire OS has to be patched in order to be run on a real TI-84+.
The OS include specific code for using the TI-nSpire screen, or the TI-nSpire USB port for example... The hardware is not the same.
So without those patches, installing the 84+nSpire OS on a true 84+ will probably give you a blank screen and unusable calculator.

Once the OS has been patched, the signature will be bad, and your TI-84+ won't want it.
(that's why we are currently taking care of the TI-84+ OS signing key on other topics... I've got 4 computers on that)


Brandon W has patched the 2.42 84+nSpire OS, in order to run it on a true TI-84+.
You can find that special 8Xu update file on his web site.
But the 2.42 OS is based on the 2.41 OS, so there is no interest for you.

2.44 OS is based on the 2.43 OS (the last one released for the real TI-84+).


There *may* be some interesting new features on the 2.46 and 2.48 OS, but I'm not even sure of that.

Did you notice anything that is available on the 2.46/2.48 84+nSpire OS, and that was not available on the original TI-84+ ?
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FloppusMaximus


Advanced Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 472

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 03:39:05 pm    Post subject:

calcdude84se wrote:
I'm surprised (and annoyed) that TI hasn't released any updates past 2.43 for the real (non-emulated) ti-84+(SE)


You're annoyed? How do you think we 83+ users feel? No OpenLib, no Manual-Fit, no χēGOF, whatever that is... no Push-to-Test...
Razz
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ztrumpet


Active Member


Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 555

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 04:00:43 pm    Post subject:

FloppusMaximus wrote:
No OpenLib, no Manual-Fit, no χēGOF, whatever that is... no Push-to-Test...
Razz
What?!?
I've never heard of those. What's thier use? <I am on a 83+ also...>
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magicdanw
pcGuru()


Calc Guru


Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 1110

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 05:40:58 pm    Post subject:

The only one I was interested in was OpenLib, which would have helped a whole bunch of applications not have to bother with hooks and chaining. Unfortunately, since it's not compatible with 83+, (almost) no one has ever used it. I once considered making a parser hook on the 83+ that reads the OpenLib tokens, but then I remembered the calculator won't accept the file transfer if it has illegal tokens. Of course, now that everyone's patching OSes...maybe I'll start a new project for myself... Wink
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FloppusMaximus


Advanced Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 472

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 05:45:03 pm    Post subject:

Well, OpenLib is the nifty (though poorly implemented) command that allows BASIC programs to call subroutines provided by Flash apps. USB8x provides such a library, and there may be a few other apps that do so. The feature has not been wildly popular for two reasons: one, it requires OS 2.x; and two, the name of the app must be 8 characters and consist only of uppercase letters and digits.

Manual-Fit, I think, lets you draw a line on the graph screen (manually adjusting the position and slope using the arrow keys), and outputs the equation.

There are a few new statistics commands as well; I don't know what they do. On OS 2.30 and above, there's the special discontinuity detection when graphing functions with Xres = 1. And of course, there's Push-to-Test, TestGuard 2, Push-to-Test Singapore Edition, and so forth.
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fullmetalcoder


Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 139

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 07:12:11 pm    Post subject:

calcdude84se wrote:
I'm surprised (and annoyed) that TI hasn't released any updates past 2.43 for the real (non-emulated) ti-84+(SE)

Maybe these do not add any significnt feature but are just patches to get nSpire emulation to work properly in which case it is understandable that TI did not release it separately...
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IAmACalculator
In a state of quasi-hiatus


Know-It-All


Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 1571

Posted: 18 Aug 2009 07:43:15 pm    Post subject:

Chances are, they're never going to release anything for the real Z80 calcs again. Once TI puts out a new calc, they never look back.
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brandonw


Advanced Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 455

Posted: 19 Aug 2009 06:51:12 am    Post subject:

fullmetalcoder wrote:
calcdude84se wrote:
I'm surprised (and annoyed) that TI hasn't released any updates past 2.43 for the real (non-emulated) ti-84+(SE)

Maybe these do not add any significnt feature but are just patches to get nSpire emulation to work properly in which case it is understandable that TI did not release it separately...


They haven't added anything new, all they're doing is mucking around with the invalid instructions they've added for turning off the calculator, Flash writing, USB communication, etc. Rather than try to emulate the god-awful USB (and other) interfaces, they add invalid instructions which work as "traps" of sorts which let the emulator take control temporarily and perform the operation, then return control back to the emulator.

I know it sounds cool and all to run 2.48 on your real 84+SE, but trust me (as I've done this with 2.42), it's not worth it to make it run. All you're doing is gutting the Nspire-specific stuff and leaving yourself with a slightly unstable OS that's no different from 2.43.

What I'm curious on is if they'll actually go to 2.50 next, while the real 84+SE is stuck with 2.45 next.

Also, I know I'm being anal about this, but it's "Nspire", not "nSpire". TI's web site and the actual About screen on the 84+SE confirm this. We really shouldn't be promoting wrong ways to say this.
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calcdude84se


Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 207

Posted: 19 Aug 2009 04:09:07 pm    Post subject:

So I'm not missing anything. It isn't like TI will decide to release an update to include symbolic capabilities (that would be nice, but would break a lot of programs).
And I feel sorry for those with a TI-83+ who can't use these commands. (You're not missing anything. Manual-Fit can be duplicated nicely, no Flash Apps currently existing can be used with Openib( and ExecLib [except for usb8x, but 83+'s don't have usb ports], the chi-square functions are only useful for high-end statistics [most of us don't do that], discontinuity detection makes your graph look ugly, and nobody cares for the testing features)
<sidenote>
TI didn't include documentation for the OpenLib( and ExecLib instructions in the TI-84+(SE) manual. (Apparently the didn't update the manual for the new OS)
</sidenote>
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |


Super Elite (Last Title)


Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328

Posted: 19 Aug 2009 06:27:54 pm    Post subject:

I'd kind of like to have the TI-84's statistics functions, actually. You can write programs to calculate most of them, but this is too complicated for many people (we had an entire topic devoted to an invT( alternative) and the end result is a bit slower, as well.

χēGOF-Test(, on the other hand, is much easier to replace.

Then again, I'd much rather TI add some of the 83 series's statistics functionality to the 89 series, which is otherwise more fun to do math with.


Last edited by Guest on 19 Aug 2009 06:32:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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brandonw


Advanced Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 455

Posted: 19 Aug 2009 08:42:48 pm    Post subject:

calcdude84se wrote:
<sidenote>
TI didn't include documentation for the OpenLib( and ExecLib instructions in the TI-84+(SE) manual. (Apparently the didn't update the manual for the new OS)
</sidenote>


Of course not, because as you said, none of TI's applications support it, and the way you'd use OpenLib(/ExecLib is completely arbitrary and depends on the Flash application you're using it with.
The real documentation for this would be in the way of hooks, and good luck getting TI to acknowledge those exist.
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calcdude84se


Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 207

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 12:26:01 pm    Post subject:

Great, now I feel bad for calling the statistical functions unused. (I'll get over it)

brandonw wrote:
calcdude84se wrote:
<sidenote>
TI didn't include documentation for the OpenLib( and ExecLib instructions in the TI-84+(SE) manual. (Apparently the didn't update the manual for the new OS)
</sidenote>


Of course not, because as you said, none of TI's applications support it, and the way you'd use OpenLib(/ExecLib is completely arbitrary and depends on the Flash application you're using it with.
The real documentation for this would be in the way of hooks, and good luck getting TI to acknowledge those exist.


It's as if TI wants us to use the undocumented features, but just won't admit it.
Of course, there is always the possibility that they designed the OS the way it is for practical reasons. :biggrin:
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FloppusMaximus


Advanced Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 472

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 01:05:44 pm    Post subject:

calcdude84se wrote:
It's as if TI wants us to use the undocumented features, but just won't admit it.

There may be some disagreement between the features that TI's programmers decide to implement, and the features that management wants them to advertise. Smile As far as I'm aware, they never did provide any documentation on the 82, 85, or 92 internals, but I think they were generally happy to see people pushing the limits of what the devices could do.
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calcdude84se


Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 207

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 01:13:16 pm    Post subject:

We'll truly see what TI's calculators can do when someone releases a complete replacement OS for the 83+ series.
If the replacement is a normal operating system (like Windows, Linux) then the full capacity of these devices can be realized.
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Galandros


Active Member


Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 565

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 06:00:27 pm    Post subject:

FloppusMaximus wrote:
calcdude84se wrote:
It's as if TI wants us to use the undocumented features, but just won't admit it.

There may be some disagreement between the features that TI's programmers decide to implement, and the features that management wants them to advertise. Smile As far as I'm aware, they never did provide any documentation on the 82, 85, or 92 internals, but I think they were generally happy to see people pushing the limits of what the devices could do.

So they don't provide documentation in order to us get curious and make all the work for them.

They are genius, save time on writing and give a extra motivation for us...
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FloppusMaximus


Advanced Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 472

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 07:34:20 pm    Post subject:

Absolutely. The reverse-engineering is half the fun. :)

I vaguely remember (years ago, when TI actually provided a modicum of technical support to third-party developers) asking for more information about hooks, and being told that TI did not support the use of undocumented OS features... but that I should go look around for third party documentation.
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Graphmastur


Advanced Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 360

Posted: 20 Aug 2009 08:21:27 pm    Post subject:

FloppusMaximus wrote:
Absolutely. The reverse-engineering is half the fun. :)

I vaguely remember (years ago, when TI actually provided a modicum of technical support to third-party developers) asking for more information about hooks, and being told that TI did not support the use of undocumented OS features... but that I should go look around for third party documentation.

Did they say it was "proprietary" information? I asked a question about the usb, and they basically stone walled me, saying that if it was not on TI's website, then it was "proprietary" information, and could not be disclosed.

Basically, they just said no, wrapped in a pretty little bow. (Hey, that was a rhyme... Anyway...)

But yeah, figuring stuff out is almost all the fun. You figure stuff out, implement it, and it works great!!!! (Especially for stuff that "Doesn't exist", like hooks.)

Speaking of the usb thing, with the help of brandonw, I got the usb to accept stuff. Yay!!!!
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ztrumpet


Active Member


Joined: 06 May 2009
Posts: 555

Posted: 21 Aug 2009 10:13:18 am    Post subject:

Graphmastur wrote:
Especially for stuff that "Doesn't exist", like hooks

Correct me if I'm wrong: Ti's Start-Up and Catolog Help Apps use hooks, right?
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calcdude84se


Member


Joined: 09 Aug 2009
Posts: 207

Posted: 21 Aug 2009 12:57:57 pm    Post subject:

Of course they do. TI just doesn't want to admit it. :biggrin:

Last edited by Guest on 23 Aug 2009 05:22:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Graphmastur


Advanced Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 360

Posted: 21 Aug 2009 04:21:16 pm    Post subject:

ztrumpet wrote:
Graphmastur wrote:
Especially for stuff that "Doesn't exist", like hooks

Correct me if I'm wrong: Ti's Start-Up and Catolog Help Apps use hooks, right?

That is why I used quotes. TI won't admit it.
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