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DigiTan
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Posted: 12 Dec 2006 12:49:55 am    Post subject:

Heh heh. Is that your way of rushing the RW-85 port? :biggrin:
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AlienCC
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Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1927

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 12:51:29 am    Post subject:

I'm only doing that port, and the Sonic port because that model deserves it. Not to mention there are still some people who use them.

--AlienCC
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Recursive Acronym


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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 13 Dec 2006 05:19:35 pm    Post subject:

DigiTan wrote:
The TI-82 display isn't mapped to RAM meaning it has to be updated using a slower port-based method (either the built-in ROM call or the slightly-faster  routine included in the shell).  Any full-screen grayscale will flicker unless you're doing a still image--and even then, it's still noticeable.  Limited grayscale.
[post="92467"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, and it is the same for the 83(+)and 84+ series, and different for higher calcs, but is it necessary to mention that? None of the other calcs say "good with grayscale" or ect. It makes it sound like grayscale is a built-in function of the OS. And things like "limited sound" are not mentioned in the cons of the calcs to which this is relevant.


Last edited by Guest on 14 Dec 2006 06:32:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DigiTan
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Posted: 13 Dec 2006 06:02:48 pm    Post subject:

It's relevant to game developers. Imagine trying to code an 82 version of Desolate, Phoenix III, Super Mario 86 when your images blink at a seizure-inducing 10Hz. The artwork and graphics source would have to be completely re-tooled. Given that TI-82 is the only TI grapher with this issue, I file it under 'noteworthy.'

Last edited by Guest on 13 Dec 2006 06:20:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Recursive Acronym


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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 04:40:15 pm    Post subject:

DigiTan wrote:
It's relevant to game developers.  Imagine trying to code an 82 version of Desolate, Phoenix III, Super Mario 86 when your images blink at a seizure-inducing 10Hz.  The artwork and graphics source would have to be completely re-tooled.  Given that TI-82 is the only TI grapher with this issue, I file it under 'noteworthy.'
[post="92641"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Wait... you say 10 Hz? How can that make grayscale at all? And any way, I believe that the point of this is for it to be relevant to people who don't know a lot about the calcs, not to game designers. It might become relevant if you put something like "slow LCD driver" or whatever. Also, how could the 82 be the only model with this problem? If the 82 has this limitation, wouldn't the 81 and the 80 also have this limitation?
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Fallen Ghost


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Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 955

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 04:57:50 pm    Post subject:

The calcs' order don't go with the number. The 85 was made before the 82, the 73 after the normal 83 and strange things like that. It draws only 20 screens a minute max. Not alot but still could be enough. As the 83/84/plus/SE are not memory mapped, greyscale is also different, which is also noteworthy to know.
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Recursive Acronym


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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 06:49:14 pm    Post subject:

Fallen Ghost wrote:
The calcs' order don't go with the number. The 85 was made before the 82, the 73 after the normal 83 and strange things like that. It draws only 20 screens a minute max. Not alot but still could be enough. As the 83/84/plus/SE are not memory mapped, greyscale is also different, which is also noteworthy to know.
[post="92708"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know that the lesser numbered calcs have generally less features. The 81 and the 85 were released before the 82, and the 80 is generally a crappy calc, although the 85 (and above) use memory-mapping, so I assumed that the 81 and the 80 would have the same problem. But the topic doesn't mention them and no one would consider buying one of those anyway, so my comment was irrelevant. Also, what does "20 screens a minute max" refer to?


Last edited by Guest on 14 Dec 2006 06:58:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fallen Ghost


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Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 955

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 07:39:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
10Hz


According to wikipedia, 1Hz=1 oscillation/sec=2 times so
10hz=20 times/sec, so then I thought 20 screens/sec. Maybe it's no the max ofthe calc, but that's what I thought Digitan said by seizure inducing 10Hz.
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DigiTan
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Posted: 15 Dec 2006 04:48:59 am    Post subject:

10Hz being in the ballpark. The grey in Little Dude II, Worms, Donkey Kong and Robot War all flicker around that rate. An upstart programmer wanting to directly port his favorite grayscale engine to TI-82 will see graphics even lamer than this debate. Thoughout the TI community, I've had to point out exactly why TI-82 greyscale doesn't work; why Duck's greyscale engine still works for TI-83+; why you have to go through ports 10 and 11; etc. It's news to most people. That's why the description stays.

TI-82...
- 28.8KB RAM
- Limited Grayscale
- May cause thread hijacking Cool


Last edited by Guest on 15 Dec 2006 04:58:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Recursive Acronym


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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 15 Dec 2006 06:09:07 pm    Post subject:

DigiTan wrote:
10Hz being in the ballpark.  The grey in Little Dude II, Worms, Donkey Kong and Robot War all flicker around that rate.  An upstart programmer wanting to directly port his favorite grayscale engine to TI-82 will see graphics even lamer than this debate.  Thoughout the TI community, I've had to point out exactly why TI-82 greyscale doesn't work; why Duck's greyscale engine still works for TI-83+; why you have to go through ports 10 and 11; etc.  It's news to most people.  That's why the description stays.

TI-82...
- 28.8KB RAM
- Limited Grayscale
- May cause thread hijacking  Cool
[post="92768"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Lots of people might not know that a calc can even produce greyscale, especially if they are at the moment just deciding which calc to buy Dry . Besides, it would be much better if it said, "Low LCD Refresh Rate" or something like that, because it would apply to more situations. Or, "Greyscale Possible" could be put under the descriptions of the 83 and above, but still, using greyscale is a topic that most people just buying their calc could not care any less about. This guide is not for your "upstart programmer", but rather for a Newbie.


Last edited by Guest on 15 Dec 2006 06:10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DigiTan
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Posted: 15 Dec 2006 07:07:39 pm    Post subject:

It being SilverCalcKnight's list, I'd maybe leave it up to him to decide who it targets. It sounds to me you're really wanting a carbon copy of TI's well-advertised calculator comparison charts. Most expect UTI to go beyond a cut-n-paste job. To point out the bugs, quirks, and odd factiods TI always leaves out and so forth. "Limited grayscale..." Rolls off the tongue. Concise, accurate, no technobabble, and easy to understand. I'll even throw in "low refresh rate" for kicks.

Before this molehill-turned-Mt. Everst robs me of more youth I ask: is anybody else confused by the grayscale comment? Show of hands?


Last edited by Guest on 15 Dec 2006 07:14:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SilverCalcKnight
|_


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Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 577

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 12:04:48 am    Post subject:

Ugh, ok. It's been a while.

I did mean this guide to be a guide to both newbies and upstart programmers alike. I think "Limited greyscale" is a better choice, as I'm sure more newbies know about greyscale than refresh rate. At any rate, I can always put both. However, if that bothers anyone, I'm willing to keep the discussion going over it before I make a decision. But I'd hate for this to lead to a topic closing.

Anything else that I'm missing?

-=SCK=-
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DigiTan
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Posted: 22 Dec 2006 12:32:30 am    Post subject:

Meh, I'm cool with both. Or maybe a "greyscale gaming?........yes/no" format.
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Recursive Acronym


Advanced Member


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 05:12:30 pm    Post subject:

Recursive Acronym wrote:
Actually...
The TI-83 has built in support for asm.  85 has hacked asm.  The 73 is the exact same as the 73 Explorer, and has 8 app spaces.  Whatever the heck about "limited grayscale" on the 82 is just out of place and confusing.  And the 82, 83, 83+, 85, and 86 all have the same processor, so speeds shouldn't be much different except that the algorithm in the ROM may be faster.  I don't know, but I'm almost certain that the 82 has hacked asm.  I think that the 82 thru 84 or even the 81 thru 84 have the same general style of interface, just with new features as the number increases.  Also, you should make a distinction between Flash and RAM among the 83+/84+ line, adding that all the calcs in the 83+/84+ line have the same amount of usable RAM, just the archive is different.  The 83+ SE and 84+ SE have 94 app spaces.  The 84+ has 30 spaces.  The 83+ has 10.  Thus, the 83+ SE has 9.4, not 10, times the archive of the 83+.
A source:
http://education.ti.com/educationportal/si...e/download.html
You may want to add this url to the guide:
http://www.datamath.org/
After going to that site, click Album, then Graphing/Symbolic Calculators.
Also, Wikipedia has some good articles.
[post="92464"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

There is everything that I mentioned in this post, except of course the greyscale thing. Does anyone find mistakes in this?
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DarkerLine
ceci n'est pas une |


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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 8328

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 05:30:20 pm    Post subject:

The TI-82 definitely has assembly, and I don't believe it's hacked because of the link port thing. DigiTan would be the expert here.

The TI-73, TI-82, TI-83, TI-83+, TI-83+ SE, TI-84+, TI-84+ SE have the same style of interface, with a few little options here and there that are different. The TI-82 and TI-83 have no archive, and the TI-73 has "app spaces" that you can't use to archive programs but can be used for apps.

The TI-80 is completely different from all of these; the TI-81 is similar to the above sequence in many ways, but much more limited in capability. The TI-85 and TI-86 are also quite different.
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Recursive Acronym


Advanced Member


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 06:01:07 pm    Post subject:

DarkerLine wrote:
The TI-82 definitely has assembly, and I don't believe it's hacked because of the link port thing. DigiTan would be the expert here.

The TI-73, TI-82, TI-83, TI-83+, TI-83+ SE, TI-84+, TI-84+ SE have the same style of interface, with a few little options here and there that are different. The TI-82 and TI-83 have no archive, and the TI-73 has "app spaces" that you can't use to archive programs but can be used for apps.

The TI-80 is completely different from all of these; the TI-81 is similar to the above sequence in many ways, but much more limited in capability. The TI-85 and TI-86 are also quite different.
[post="93313"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Thanks. I don't know... how exactly does the "link port thing" work?
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DarkerLine
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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Posted: 22 Dec 2006 06:21:27 pm    Post subject:

Well... there is a link port. Which means you can send programs to the calculator. As opposed to the calculators you can't do that for and you have to type them in.
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Recursive Acronym


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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 499

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 06:36:34 pm    Post subject:

DarkerLine wrote:
Well... there is a link port. Which means you can send programs to the calculator. As opposed to the calculators you can't do that for and you have to type them in.
[post="93315"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

But... isn't it true that there is no built-in way to execute 82 asm programs from the calc? Just like how the 85 had to have a special backup made so that the pointers in the custom menu pointed to asm code? But, there is no custom menu on an 82, so the question that I am asking is how the asm programs were executed.
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DarkerLine
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Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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Posted: 22 Dec 2006 08:57:54 pm    Post subject:

I don't know, not being a TI-82 expert.

You run programs by downloading a shell, which you run like a Basic program, and which gives you a list of assembly programs to execute.
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AlienCC
Creative Receptacle!


Know-It-All


Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 1927

Posted: 23 Dec 2006 03:37:55 am    Post subject:

The Ti-82 Shell is installed on the Ti-82 by sending a backup to the calc, much like the Ti-85. However on the Ti-85 asm programs were stored as strings, and executed from the shell which was accessible from the custom menu. On the Ti-82 asm programs are stored as programs, and executed from the shell which is also a program. You see the Ti-82 isn't that different from the Ti-83 in how pre-compiled asm works, aside from initial loading of the shell.

--AlienCC
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