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#cemetech wrote:
[13:36] <Jonimus> That also doesn't apply to an OS dumped from an existing calculator such as what is in ROM's gotten through TILP.
[13:37] <Jonimus> Since you don't have to accecpt that EULA in order to obtain it.


But we might be accepting the EULA by purchasing the calculator. EULAs can be pretty sticky.
Lionel Debroux wrote:
In any case, attempting to criminalize users for normal usage is pointless, stupid and loathsome practice, and also gluttony for punishment (since users will fight back) Smile
Well, criminalize users who are operating within the generally-acceptable bound of dumping their own calculator's ROM and using it in an emulator seems like bad PR and cutting off their nose to spite their face. I haven't contacted the EFF yet (nor will I unless I'm asked to remove jsTIfied, which seems to fall outside the bounds of the EULA even as written by my reading), but I'd imagine the fact that the EULA contradicts the reverse-engineering clause of the DMCA would be something the EFF might enjoy looking into. If they're trying to cut down on freeloaders who pirate ROMs and then use them on their Android smartphones, then I understand where they're coming from.
comicIDIOT wrote:
But we might be accepting the EULA by purchasing the calculator. EULAs can be pretty sticky.

Not if this is a recent restriction and you bought your calculator years ago.
Does this mean that people won't be allowed to use Jstified anymore?
No. It just means, depending on how broad this is, that you can't use any ROMs from your calculator in an emulator if you bought your calculator after the date the EULA became effective, which seems to be a few days ago. But, some people are interrpretting it more narrowly and think it only applies to fake ROMs made from .8xu files.

elfprince13 wrote:
comicIDIOT wrote:
But we might be accepting the EULA by purchasing the calculator. EULAs can be pretty sticky.

Not if this is a recent restriction and you bought your calculator years ago.


Indeed.
That's good, cause mine's old
comicIDIOT wrote:
No. It just means, depending on how broad this is, that you can't use any ROMs from your calculator in an emulator if you bought your calculator after the date the EULA became effective, which seems to be a few days ago. But, some people are interrpretting it more narrowly and think it only applies to fake ROMs made from .8xu files.

elfprince13 wrote:
comicIDIOT wrote:
But we might be accepting the EULA by purchasing the calculator. EULAs can be pretty sticky.

Not if this is a recent restriction and you bought your calculator years ago.


Indeed.
Comic, no one is saying it doesn't apply to specific types of roms or anything like that. It applies to all ROM's made with an OS downloaded after they changed the EULA. Freeboot or otherwise.

Also this doesn't apply to calculators bought in stores with the OS already on them unless they added this restriction to the paperwork. Even then its not like you are forced to read it and there is no mention of it on the packaging. They would need to add something to the calculators first startup message for this to be applicable since you can easily use the calc without ever reading or accepting anything.

They can't make you magically accept a license without you knowing about it.

So if you have the OS already downloaded to your computer they can't claim to limit you from using FreeBoot or a rom8x boot code dump in order to make a ROM for any of the great existing emulators.
TheStorm wrote:
So if you have the OS already downloaded to your computer they can't claim to limit you from using FreeBoot or a rom8x boot code dump in order to make a ROM for any of the great existing emulators.
And although I am in no way a lawyer, I believe that no company could prevent you from using software in a way that the EULA you accepted when you downloaded it did not forbid but a new EULA does, under the ex post facto line of reasoning.
TheStorm wrote:
.... Even then its not like you are forced to read it and there is no mention of it on the packaging. They would need to add something to the calculators first startup message for this to be applicable since you can easily use the calc without ever reading or accepting anything.

They can't make you magically accept a license without you knowing about it.


Yeah, they can.

http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Delivery-By-EULA.aspx (Top image belongs to this article, http://techcrunch.com/2007/12/21/adventures-in-end-user-license-agreements/ )

EULA's don't have to be explicitly accepted. It can be as simple as "By installing this software, opening this package, etc." and placed as a sticker or inside the manual.

But to be extreme, and on point:

EFF wrote:
5. "By signing this contract, you also agree to every change in future versions of it. Oh yes, and EULAs are subject to change without notice."
Comic, from the article you linked there:
EFF wrote:
Some EULA terms harm people who want to customize their technology, as well as inventors who want to create new products that work with the technology they've bought. "Reverse-engineering," which is often forbidden in EULAs, is a term for taking a machine or piece of software apart in order to see how it works. This kind of tinkering is explicitly permitted by federal law it is considered a "fair use" of a copyrighted item. Courts have held that the fair use provisions of the US Copyright Act allow for reverse-engineering of software when the purpose is to create a non-infringing interoperable program.
It's not clear to me from that section, though, whether the EULA override Federal law (I wouldn't imagine it does).
I wouldn't imagine it does either, but the post was for Accepting EULA's not reverse engineering. I was implying, that if TI had added a clause in their EULA back when most of us bought our calculators (say, circa 2012) then this new EULA would take affect by continued use of the calculator or however they bind us to continued use of the agreement.

If they update the EULA and there's no clause that says we agree to any future revisions then yes, I would presume it's legal on calculators bought with the old EULA.
I didnt think documents like EULA's and other T&C implementations were considered relatively 'strong' from a legal standpoint anyway?
tr1p1ea wrote:
I didnt think documents like EULA's and other T&C implementations were considered relatively 'strong' from a legal standpoint anyway?


That could be true, but nobody wants to test that theory in light of the kind consequences Elfprince outlined.
comicIDIOT wrote:
I wouldn't imagine it does either, but the post was for Accepting EULA's not reverse engineering. I was implying, that if TI had added a clause in their EULA back when most of us bought our calculators (say, circa 2012) then this new EULA would take affect by continued use of the calculator or however they bind us to continued use of the agreement.

If they update the EULA and there's no clause that says we agree to any future revisions then yes, I would presume it's legal on calculators bought with the old EULA.


If you can find where on the package or on the calc itself it says, "By doing X you accept Y" then the EULA on the website matters. But last I checked it doesn't say that and thus we are not accepting the EULA by using the calculator.

elfprince wrote:

Right, but my point is that it seems pretty clear that BootFree is legal, but that we should not be encouraging its use or waving it too proudly in TI's face, because widespread use is what will trigger the sorts of negative consequences I was concerned about.
To further explain this here is a quote from the EULA
Quote:
Subject to your payment of any applicable license fee, Texas Instruments Incorporated ("TI") grants you a license to copy and use the software program(s) on a TI calculator and copy and use the documentation from the linked web page or CD ROM (both software programs and documentation being "Licensed Materials"). In addition to the copy resident on your calculator, you may keep a copy on your computer for backup / archive purposes only.
IANAL In this case the license fee would be the purchase of an applicable calculator or emulator product from TI. Basically we are licensed to us one copy of the OS on one device, real or emulated from TI. The issue with this as Elfprince mentioned earlier is they cannot restrict us from using their software on non TI devices due to anti-trust laws. Thus I would interpret this to mean FreeBoot based roms are legal as long as you own a physical calculator or Smartview license. Again this assumes that the restriction for use on only TI device wouldn't hold in court. But you would have still needed to pay for it, IE own a TI calculator or Software on which it runs.



Edit: It was elfprince who mentioned the apple anti-trust stuff, not Kerm. Fixed
I may or may not have a TI contact, as a relative. I'll go and query around. It doesn't make sense to me that they'd be able to enforce the idea that one should go read the ToS for the TI calcs every time they wanted to use one. Thus, one could claim ignorance and by all means have perfect innocent right to do so. I would assume that this only applies to calculators purchased after the EULA was changed.
Roguebantha wrote:
I may or may not have a TI contact, as a relative. I'll go and query around. It doesn't make sense to me that they'd be able to enforce the idea that one should go read the ToS for the TI calcs every time they wanted to use one. Thus, one could claim ignorance and by all means have perfect innocent right to do so. I would assume that this only applies to calculators purchased after the EULA was changed.
I have TI contacts too, but the better option is to simply lay low, not make a fuss, and see what happens. If TI starts opening a dialog with the community via me or some other channel about the issue, then by all means we should participate, but it would be far preferable to just see how things go at this point.
TheStorm wrote:
If you can find where on the package or on the calc itself it says, "By doing X you accept Y" then the EULA on the website matters. But last I checked it doesn't say that and thus we are not accepting the EULA by using the calculator.

Exactly. To add to that, the act of using the software cannot indicate acceptance of a contract (which the EULA really is), even if TI claims that it does. Downloading software from their site likewise does not indicate acceptance of a contract. You are merely receiving a copy from the software distributor (TI themselves) in that case, and you have not indicated assent to a contract.

TheStorm wrote:
To further explain this here is a quote from the EULA
Quote:
Subject to your payment of any applicable license fee, Texas Instruments Incorporated ("TI") grants you a license to copy and use the software program(s) on a TI calculator and copy and use the documentation from the linked web page or CD ROM (both software programs and documentation being "Licensed Materials"). In addition to the copy resident on your calculator, you may keep a copy on your computer for backup / archive purposes only.
IANAL In this case the license fee would be the purchase of an applicable calculator or emulator product from TI. Basically we are licensed to us one copy of the OS on one device, real or emulated from TI. The issue with this as Elfprince mentioned earlier is they cannot restrict us from using their software on non TI devices due to anti-trust laws. Thus I would interpret this to mean FreeBoot based roms are legal as long as you own a physical calculator or Smartview license. Again this assumes that the restriction for use on only TI device wouldn't hold in court. But you would have still needed to pay for it, IE own a TI calculator or Software on which it runs.


In any other industry, the so-called "license fee" is called the "purchase price", because you are purchasing a copy of the software from TI, not licensing it (this fact has been accepted and upheld by many courts). In the context of the TI-OS downloads on TI's site, the purchase price is free (zero dollars and zero cents). The purchase price for the software on a physical calculator is included in the total price of the calculator.

I find that particular clause to be especially funny because you already have the right to install and use the software. You don't need permission from TI. Copyright law already gives you those rights. You also have the right to make backup (archival) copies without permission from TI.
By the way, I noticed that Stefan Bauwen tweeted at @TICalculators about this issue; they responded:

Quote:
There has been no changes to our licenses recently regarding emulators. If you require further information about a / particular software license or licensing regarding calculator software please refer to license agreement you received / when you purchased your software/calculator or connect our support line at 1-800-842-2737 for further information.
KermMartian wrote:
By the way, I noticed that Stefan Bauwen tweeted at @TICalculators about this issue; they responded:

Quote:
There has been no changes to our licenses recently regarding emulators. If you require further information about a / particular software license or licensing regarding calculator software please refer to license agreement you received / when you purchased your software/calculator or connect our support line at 1-800-842-2737 for further information.


Ok, let's play that game...
Seems like we're going to need some evidence.

Here is the most recent EULA I could find on the Internet wayback machine: June 2012
TI wrote:
TEXAS INSTRUMENTS APP SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
By downloading the software and/or documentation you agree to abide by the following provisions.
License: Subject to your payment of any applicable license fee, Texas Instruments Incorporated ("TI") grants you a license to copy and use the software program(s) and documentation from the linked web page or CD ROM ("Licensed Materials"). In addition to the copy resident on your calculator, you may keep a copy on your computer for backup / archive purposes.
Restrictions: You may not reverse-assemble or reverse-compile the software program portion of the Licensed Materials that are provided in object code format. You may not sell, rent or lease copies of the Licensed Materials.
[...]

http://web.archive.org/web/20120626143305/http://education.ti.com/calculators/downloads/US/Software/Detail?id=6014&ref=/calculators/downloads/US/Software/Search/Results?cp%3D2%23view-1

No mention of emulators as you can see by yourself.

So, maybe they didn't change it 'recently' but they did change it in the last 6 months.
Guess what?
TI wrote:
By downloading the application you indicate your agreement with the terms and conditions of the License.

From the 89TI AMS 3.10 download page.
  
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