So you agree with me that there is basically no reason anymore to recommend Apple over say the higher end offerings of HTC, Samsung, or Motorola. Good to see we agree there.

Note that I said Opera Mobile and not Mini, there is a huge difference between the two. One is a simple J2ME browser which has one of Opera's servers do all the work and the other is a full fledged browser than has had features the Android Browser and iOS's version of Safari are just gaining such as Tabs/Windows and support of browser plugins.


Touch buttons are fine for some things, but I want a real keyboard and that is something you just cannot get with an Apple device, with all the big android players they have at least two high end phones the one with the hardware keyboard and the one without. That said some implement those keyboards better than others, and I have to say HTC does a damn fine job there, even rivaling the feel and comfortableness of many RIM devices.

My point was that iOS when orgininally released was a major step back from the "Awkward" touchscreen devices of the past. And while they have now surpassed them in features it wouldn't take much to get a late build of WinMo 6.5 competitive with the latest iOS release if MS wished. They of course decided to start from scratch with WP7 and it seems like they made some good choices, but they are far from being on par with Android and iOS or even the late builds of WinMo 6.5.x. Only time will tell if WP7 can get critical mass but from what I've been seeing that will happen and we shall soon have a 3 player market which will surely put a dent in both Android's and WinMo's market shares. And I am still waiting to see how RIM fairs. The BB system still has a strong foothold but the devices are starting to feel dated and fixing that without loosing what makes them great will be a challenge for RIM but I think they can pull it off.

Hardly.

Ah - I've played with Android and iOS versions of Opera Mobile, and I wasn't terribly impressed. Also, a ton of my Android-loving friends seem to love Dolphin.

Safari has always had browser windows, and there are plenty of alternatives to Safari in the app store (Opera included).

Sounds like a personal preference. I've never had any issues with the iOS keyboard - and I love how it changes based on context. Little things like optimizing for urls, numeric input, ssh-ing, and even twitter.



RIM. Lol.

Ok then counter my points in my previous post rather than agree that you like the Kool-aid.
Those were just example features, that said Opera Mobile existed before iOS did so my point still stands.

As for Dolphin and the other modern alternatives, I personally prefer Opera Mobile for heavy browsing but for quick things the default browser works perfectly fine across the board.
It is personal preference but only Android and now WP7 give you the choice, with iOS you are stuck with the one device option they give you, well the 3 but in that regard they are the same so it hardly matters.

RIM isn't out of the picture yet, the BB Playbook is proof, though their choice of Adobe AIR for the UI leaves me scratching my head it is a sound tablet which proves they are not out of the race.

I also still have hope that someone will pick up or that HP will opensource WebOS. For multitasking WebOS was king, give me those cards over the current task manager offerings anyday. it just needed the apps to multitask with and decent hardware to run it on and you have a winner in my book.

EDIT: And you also didn't comment on my statements about WP7, for someone I'm trying to have a discussion with you sure seem to like ignoring me.

Apple surely isn't "open" but it provides a very uniform user experience. You get an Android Phone & Tablet and they can have two different UI's. It may be the Android version but I think it comes from HTC, Samsung, Motorola, etc. They each get Android and tweak it because it is an open source platform.

Apple has managed to keep the same UI across iPod Touches, iPhones & iPads. I was able to sell an iPhone to an aunt because of her iPad. She was saying how she wasn't sure she'd know how to use the iPhone, I showed her the similarities between iPad & iPhone and she was instantly sold.



Not entirely. Safari on iOS is a branch of the desktop version as Safari on iOS isn't actually named "Safari Mobile" or "Mini". Opera was released way before Safari's initial release in 2003, so really this argument between Opera & Safari is not worth perusing, unless someone wants to find when Opera & Safari both got tabbed browsing (I had no luck finding Opera, but it seems Safari has had it since release).



No, Google isn't. Google has what, two or three handsets on the market? It's be better to state that Android is dominating iOS. And to even remotely say that Google is dominating the iPhone, you'd have to show the Nexus phones are outselling their modern competitors. Let's see. The iPhone 4 had 1.7 Million units sold on the first day, while the Nexus S was released in November, and according to an estimate had over half a million units sold by February, just about a month and a half later; I'd say iPhone is curb-stompping Nexus.

I don't see the Nexus Prime outselling the 4s, either.



In what way? I'll admit that having the choice of a smaller screen is nice when the larger screen is just a bit too big. But when comparing to Apple, which just has one screen size, we have to level the playing field another way, User experience.

Today, the first featured app on the page when browsing the Android Marketplace, Stardash, has this in their app description:



It must be pretty commonplace if one includes a message like that in a game description.

Yes they get to tweak it, but the core UI is still the same, same notifications, same apps menu, the only real change is the theming and the home screen.

As for the Tablets vs Phones, yes currently Honeycomb has had some UI tweaks to make it work better on Tablet screens, but I wouldn't argue that it is entirely different UI, the core is still the same and ICS will unify it all. I will agree that it should have been more unified from the start but that said I still feel the Tablet form factor has yet to truly prove itself as being viable and more than a niche market. I can understand Google rushing something out to get their foot in the door but ICS will really be the decider.

Apple's initial launch into the tablet world is proof in itself that the market is still to new to truly count on, proven by the hasty release of the iPad 2(more like 1.1) showing even they weren't sure what the market wanted.

And Opera Mobile is based off of the Opera codebase, which had tab's before Safari did, and allowed multiple views within a window(though not true tabs) long before Safari was even an idea at One Infinite Loop.

Google wins whether they make the handselt or not, that is what you don't seem to get. There will never be an "iPhone Killer" because there are already 50 of them in production. Just because Apple's one phone out sells each of the android offerings individually doesn't mean Apple wins, the true profit comes via the App Markets and Advertising, which Google wins in a landslide since each of those Android devices means Google get's a piece of the pie. And by giving people options and allowing Android phones to compete with each other just improves the offerings each of the handset makers put out.



That is no different than a warning on a iOS game saying if you jailbreak and mess with the system we won't support you. The difference being Google doesn't lock you out of the market you mess with your phone, they know very well that people will and want to do crazy stuff with the hardware and so they let them. Of course they will stop you from stealing things and such, but if you want to run your phone with the DPI set to a bajillion, or the processor over clocked, or even run it on devices that came with other OS's, go right ahead we'll still make money off of you. Just know they we won't support you either, just like jailbreaking voids your warranty. Yes some consumers are stupid and don't realize this, hence needing that message, but it is no different than what Apple does.

The User experience between devices does differ somewhat, but I again that is just as much a help as a hurt. I could run Android on my 5 year old phone no problem, yeah most games wouldn't run due to lack of OGL acceleration but the core android itself was more than usable. Did I mention that this phone came with WinMo 6.0 on it. Androids ability to run on a diverse variety of hardware is why it has spread so. It is the same reason that they will never surpass Microsoft in OS coverage, not everyone wants a Macbook or an iMac, or any of the limited devices apple officially allows Mac OS to run on.

We are not all the same and we don't all want the same thing, and Apple can only be number 1 for so long before people see there are options, and if they are any good they'll take them. Android gives people what iOS never will, choices. While this is a good thing in the fact that is makes iOS be what it is, it also hurts because it will only work for so long. I'm sure Apple will have a good chunk of the market share for a long time, but IMO it has zero chance of getting back on top. It boils down to people wanting choices and it just so happens that Android is the one people have gone with, what will be interesting is what WP7/Nokia and RIM decide to bring to the table. Will they be android killers, I doubt it, but it will surely be a good fight to see.


And wow did this post end up longer than I intended, and more ranty. I could go on but I'll save it for another response.

Bold added for emphasis:



Maybe your post wouldn't go on for so long if you didn't have the whole world quoted in it

shkaboinka, would you mind contributing rather than quoting an entire, lengthy, post and bolding half a sentence at the bottom and commenting on that. There's nothing wrong with a post like this as long you can snip everything else out and quote just the bit that's relevant,

...You just stated exactly the point I was trying to demonstrate, i.e. the irony of my statement about having "the whole world quoted in it" (and I'm glad that you agree).

This thread has become bloated with quotes in quotes. Can we just quote the relevant parts, people? It's not like the thread is going anywhere and people cannot read previous posts.

The problem is that each item in each post is being commented on individually. It's like two professors getting into an essay war, constantly telling the other why their conclusions are wrong.

We quote because it's relevant. This bit of a paragraph has to do with these two paragraphs I'm writing. Or this paragraph is relevant to what I'm writing. We quote whole parts to keep the context.

You'll notice that when I made my first reply on this page I removed a few levels of quotes.

If I'm addressing an entire post, like yours, and it's got one point I don't bother quoting it (unless someone posted before me, then I'd quote your post).

And who runs Android? Oh, right, Google. Yup, my statement is completely true.



"user experience" is just an excuse to compromise. Also, a variety of devices is an advantage in every way. If I want a hardware keyboard, I can have it. 4G? Check. 3D? Check. High end? Check. Low end? Check. Consumer choice is brilliant, only a true fanboy thinks otherwise (aka, you).



Note the *custom rom* part. Apps running on a jailbroken iOS face the same "issues".

But no, it isn't commonplace.



FYI iOS still doesn't have multitasking. It really truly doesn't. It has a predefined set of long-running operations you can ask the system to perform on your behalf that are *very* limited. You can't run your own code in the background.

No.

Google runs Android just as Apple runs iOS, yes. However, Android OS isn't a fair comparison to iPhone Hardware. Let's argue Hardware against hardware and software against software.

One can successfully lobby that iOS *is* technically the iPhone. I won't deny that. But when talking software, talk software. When you say Google is curb stomping iPhone, don't get confused that Google is actually dominating iOS in marketshare. As far as Handsets go, there are more iPhones combined than all of the Google hardware (e.g. Nexus) handsets.

You don't seem to get that it doesn't matter who makes the Android handset, google, HTC, Samsung, LG, etc. Google still wins, they get the Market Profits, they get the AdSense Profits and Android grows. iOS refers to both the OS and the devices it runs on in this case since there is no difference. If iOS ran on non apple hardware sure, but it doesn't and thus there is zero point in trying to discuss them separately.

I'm not talking about Android in this particular case. I'm talking about Googles Handsets like the Nexus, where iOS was never mentioned.

No, I wasn't accusing linux of stealing ideas, except for the window interface. (as in concept of having one) I was saying they undercut the competition's prices.

Alex, Google doesn't manufacture hardware. We're talking {devices running android} vs {devices running iOS}. While the nexus devices are meant to represent what pure android is meant to be, google really just cares about android market share.

Kllrnohj, iOS "multitasking" might be very restrictive for developers, but from the user's end, it works just the same. Music keeps playing, nav keeps running, sessions stay alive, and apps act like you never left them. I'll be the first to admit that iOS multitasking is limited - but for users, it works really well, and also makes it possible for people to use their devices without worrying about killing apps to improve performance/battery life. Seems like a good trade off to me.

Indeed, but the Nexus is designed by Google. I only brought the iPhone into this because Kllrnohj stated Google is dominating the iPhone, when really Google/Android is dominating iOS.

But it really isn't the same, not to a developer and not to a user. The argument that "it works for users" is flimsy at best. The multitasking UI on iOS is a disaster, and it's totally unpredictable whether or not whatever you are doing will continue to work if you hit the home button.

Also, there is *nothing* user friendly about this half-assed "multitasking" support: http://www.cultofmac.com/47938/tomtom-for-ios-4-multitasking-meets-navigation-finally/

Compared to Android where real navigation actually works regardless of what you are doing.



You keep trying to force a distinction that doesn't exist. iOS runs on more than the phones, hence my qualifier of iPhone (iOS on iPods, for example).

Also, you're attempt at clarification actually doesn't work the way you want it to. The number of activated devices is the number of Android devices with Google's apps. It does NOT include things like the Kindle Fire, Nook Color/Tablet, or all the dozens of chinese knockoffs. If we switch to your Android vs. iOS the net result is just that Android ends up winning by an even larger margin.

Btw, the Nexus devices are not the only Google devices.

You keep trying to force a distinction that doesn't exist.[/quote]

And that would be?



It was a poor choice of words on your behalf. As you say (and is obvious), iOS also runs on AppleTV, iPads and iPods. To group all those under the iPhone "qualifier" is a poor attempt to cover your back. If you meant to write iOS, why not just write iOS rather than "iPhone?"



It's a good thing I'm not making an Android to iOS correlation, but rather Google Handset Devices to Apple Handset Devices. Stop trying to force-feed me words you want me to make my own as there are two discussions going on here, one about iOS v Android and another about Google Phone Hardware v iPhones. You & I are currently (at least I am) going on about the phones.

No, it's a lack of reading comprehension on your part. I was comparing iOS on phones vs. Android on phones. As in, you completely failed at reading what I said.



No, we aren't. You keep trying to drag me into a Google Handset Devices vs. Apple Handset Devices, and I keep telling you "no". Everyone, including myself, has stuck to Android vs. iOS. You are the only one that wants to move the goal posts - probably because you can't stand your precious Apple coming in second.