DJ_O wrote:
I still dislike them for having blocked downgrading to older OSes and for keeping an anti-game stance during 4 years.

Also I believe the Nspire line is harder to use than other calcs and in some cases, people might be better off with a cheaper Prizm with the addition of eventual third-party math tools.


I don't think that opening nspires to Lua means that ti is now pro-game. They can still clamp down on games by various means with still another OS.

I agree with you that the nspire is harder to use, and that is something that doesn't get enough discussion. For that reason alone many people would be off with a Very Happy Prizm

Edit: Sorry, I meant to say " For that reason alone many people would be better off with a Very Happy Prizm. (The correction was to insert the word "better.")

Edit by Tanner: Please don't double post.
Dingus wrote:
I don't think that opening nspires to Lua means that ti is now pro-game. They can still clamp down on games by various means with still another OS.
Yep. They're still blocking all methods of downgrading, and in 3.0.2 they even blocked out the Lua programs that we had created (the ones that weren't encrypted) for some reason...
I'm going to say this: Lua is a massive improvement over nspire BASIC, and it is far easier to program in than ASM.

It is a good thing.

Three Things I still want:
An On-Calc text Editor, capable of programming for Lua
Official TI support of C/Asm (Since they are more capable than Lua, and faster)
On-Calc GCC (It can handle it)
Quote:
An On-Calc text Editor, capable of programming for Lua


Very possible. However, I don't think they would make it themselves.

Quote:
Official TI support of C/Asm (Since they are more capable than Lua, and faster)


$50 says that this will never happen, if they give us C or ASM support, they're basically begging us to hack the CX to its full potential.

Quote:
On-Calc GCC (It can handle it)


I don't think this is very possible (or rather practical), actually.
Are you kidding? GCC could run on an 89. It might take 2 or 3 minutes to compile a large prog, but it takes much longer to do a proper PC link. All you really need is a small file selection GUI.

And yeah, I wouldn't bet on TI support, but I can dream Razz
willrandship wrote:
Are you kidding? GCC could run on an 89. It might take 2 or 3 minutes to compile a large prog, but it takes much longer to do a proper PC link. All you really need is a small file selection GUI.


IIRC, they really had to re-write many things, and I don't even think it was a very complete version. It would definately need to be fixed a lot to work ON an Nspire. FOR Nspire, probably a million times easier (on comp compiler)

willrandship wrote:
All you really need is a small file selection GUI.


I'm not sure what you mean about this -- a GUI for the compiler is probably the most trivial aspect overall.
I'm pretty sure GCC could run on a Nspire CX, it's processor is more than capable of handling it and it has a lot of RAM too.
And, by the way, the CX has exactly the same CPU as the original.

There are ARM9 compilations of GCC. What I meant by the gui is that GCC is a command line program, but the nspire's command line is rather nonexistent Razz
willrandship wrote:
And, by the way, the CX has exactly the same CPU as the original.

There are ARM9 compilations of GCC. What I meant by the gui is that GCC is a command line program, but the nspire's command line is rather nonexistent Razz


The thing is though, is that while it may be "possible", it's not possible at the moment. TI would have to really be nice to us and give us enough leeway to do ANY C or Assembly programming for the CX. And that's never gonna happen.
I'm of the opinion that it's not going to happen out of fear of disabling test protection mechanisms that are used for things like SAT testing, which is extremely important to TI's bottom line. But we digress; let's try to focus on these tools, and how good they are. Have any of you tried them out? For that matter, how many of you actually have Nspires that you can use with this?
What if the test protection mechanisms were hard-coded into the hardware itself? So they couldn't be overridden? Then they can give programmers full access to the rest of the hardware without sacrificing the testing capability.
DShiznit wrote:
What if the test protection mechanisms were hard-coded into the hardware itself? So they couldn't be overridden? Then they can give programmers full access to the rest of the hardware without sacrificing the testing capability.
That would be good, but obviously they can't do that because there are already so many Nspires made that haven't been made in that way, including CXes.
KermMartian wrote:
For that matter, how many of you actually have Nspires that you can use with this?


LOL, for me it ain't going to happen. Because of the close spacing of the tiny alpha keys including the x,y,z keys that are constantly in use, because of the difficulty of use, because of the lack of any real math improvement over the Voyage/89, because of ...........etc., I'm not going to waste my money on the nspire.
GCC is far, far too memory-hungry to run on a 89. And even on a CX, it couldn't compile complex code: when compiling some C++, I've already seen GCC eat up 500 MB of RAM on my x86 / x86_64 computers.
Lionel Debroux wrote:
GCC is far, far too memory-hungry to run on a 89. And even on a CX, it couldn't compile complex code: when compiling some C++, I've already seen GCC eat up 500 MB of RAM on my x86 / x86_64 computers.
It might be able to compile moderately complex code, I think, but perhaps at the expense of a lot of other features such as variable optimization or indeed almost all optimization. Either way, you'll definitely lose a lot of abilities trying to cram something as complex as GCC onto something with the capabilities of an Nspire (or a Prizm, for that matter).
Err, GCC can compile on extremely low amounts of RAM. Let's assume that you're using 16 MB on the nspire. Set the parameters gcc-min-heapsize to a little under 16*1024 (It's in Kb) and gcc-min-expand to 0, and that actually forces GCC to garbage collect any time it tries to use more than 16 Mb of Ram. Less ram makes it take longer, but it can compile it.

From GCC's Online Doc:

Quote:
ggc-min-expand
GCC uses a garbage collector to manage its own memory allocation. This parameter specifies the minimum percentage by which the garbage collector's heap should be allowed to expand between collections. Tuning this may improve compilation speed; it has no effect on code generation.

The default is 30% + 70% * (RAM/1GB) with an upper bound of 100% when RAM >= 1GB. If getrlimit is available, the notion of "RAM" is the smallest of actual RAM, RLIMIT_RSS, RLIMIT_DATA and RLIMIT_AS. If GCC is not able to calculate RAM on a particular platform, the lower bound of 30% is used. Setting this parameter and ggc-min-heapsize to zero causes a full collection to occur at every opportunity. This is extremely slow, but can be useful for debugging.
ggc-min-heapsize
Minimum size of the garbage collector's heap before it begins bothering to collect garbage. The first collection occurs after the heap expands by ggc-min-expand% beyond ggc-min-heapsize. Again, tuning this may improve compilation speed, and has no effect on code generation.

The default is RAM/8, with a lower bound of 4096 (four megabytes) and an upper bound of 131072 (128 megabytes). If getrlimit is available, the notion of "RAM" is the smallest of actual RAM, RLIMIT_RSS, RLIMIT_DATA and RLIMIT_AS. If GCC is not able to calculate RAM on a particular platform, the lower bound is used. Setting this parameter very large effectively disables garbage collection. Setting this parameter and ggc-min-expand to zero causes a full collection to occur at every opportunity.


Also, I have an nspire, but since TilP hates OS 3.0, I may never be able to use Lua. Razz I can still do C though Laughing
Well, 16 MB is not "extremely low" Wink
In the RAM consumption, besides the heap and stack requires by GCC, one needs to add the cost of the executables themselves: on the Nspire, they'd be launched from RAM.
In the Flash consumption, up to several megabytes for storing headers (in plain text or precompiled form), library functions (.a), etc.


And TILP II 1.15 and 1.16 testing build can work with OS 3.0.1 at least, I checked it myself Smile
The thing is, before we even talk about how "possible" it is to make GCC run on a calculator, we should discuss how to actually ALLOW it to run on a calculator. You can't shoot the leopard without bullets and a gun.
But you already can. I was referring to the original nspire, not the cx.

Oh, so you released an updated tilp? Good to hear! I'll be installing them shortly.
Ashbad wrote:
The thing is, before we even talk about how "possible" it is to make GCC run on a calculator, we should discuss how to actually ALLOW it to run on a calculator. You can't shoot the leopard without bullets and a gun.
True, but instead of focusing on what we can't do yet, and would take a lot of work, let's focus on what TI has already done for us, and see how it benefits us and whether it's worth our while to pursue it instead of focusing on C programs for the Prizm.
  
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