Contest topic: Doors CS-themed?
EXCELLENT!
 64%  [ 9 ]
I don't participate in contests
 28%  [ 4 ]
I would prefer... (please post below)
 7%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 14

Since a few weeks before Omnimaga announced their very popular Axe programming contest, I've been thinking of when the next Cemetech contest should be, and what it should cover. One idea I had had was a Doors CS programming contest, to get people familiar with features of Doors CS. I thought about having a BASIC/Hybrid category, in which people would have to use either the :A autounarchive header or something along those lines, as well as perhaps the XLib/Celtic routines, and an ASM/Axe category, where people would need to use the DCS header (of course) and features like the AP system or the GUI system or something. The inimitable BrandonW has offered to contribute a very very special PRIZE to the contest for the winning entry: a TI-83+ with no ASM execution limit! It's a TI-73, with Cameleon used to convert it to a TI-83+, and placed in a TI-83+ case. Thus, it can execute programs of any size, even larger than 8KB, something impossible for every TI-83+ in existence (outside TI's headquarters, anyway)! I'd probably also like to come up with a nice prize for the second (and third?) place winner(s), and I've for some time owed BrandonW his prize from the Contest 6: Utilities contest. What do you guys think of the subject, the prizes, etc? Any comments or thoughts? Discuss!

Edit: As Brandon correctly observed, I think this would be a great way to gear up for the (planned) September 1st release of Doors CS 7, get people used to coding under Doors CS, and perhaps slightly selfishly, help me get more beta testers for the shell. Smile
There's autounarchiving in DCS7?

Wow, I should start reading the new posts Neutral

Just to clarify: This contest requires DCS7, not any of the previous versions, right?
Deep Thought wrote:
There's autounarchiving in DCS7?

Wow, I should start reading the new posts Neutral

Just to clarify: This contest requires DCS7, not any of the previous versions, right?
Well, there's not too much different in terms of the stuff DCS will offer programmers in DCS7 vs. DCS6, other than XLib/Celtic compatibility. And yes, Doors CS offers this header format:


Code:
::DCS6
:"64-char_hex_icon
::A
:ZSUB1
:ZSUB2
:SUBPRG5
::
:Program code


Where Doors CS will automatically unarchive ZSUB1, ZSUB2, and SUBPRG5 when you execute the program, then rearchive them when the main BASIC program terminates. Did you also know that if "Ans" or "rand" is the first line of a BASIC program, Doors CS will hide it from the Doors CS desktop? Cf here for more information: http://dcs.cemetech.net/index.php?title=BASIC_Header
I'm game for a programming contest. But, I have to ask. If there's two categories, will there be identical prizes for 1st/2nd/3rd for each?

Also, I need to get back into TI programming. I still have two games to finish (3 if I get off my lazy butt about a physics engine). This could definitely spark my desire to code again ^^
KeithJohansen wrote:
I'm game for a programming contest. But, I have to ask. If there's two categories, will there be identical prizes for 1st/2nd/3rd for each?

Also, I need to get back into TI programming. I still have two games to finish (3 if I get off my lazy butt about a physics engine). This could definitely spark my desire to code again ^^
So what I was thinking (and this is subject to change) would be to pick maybe 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in each category, and then come up with an overall 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? That might not be the most fair, but it might also be awkward (and unfair) to try to compare good ASM programs and good BASIC programs.
Seems interesting. I don't know if I will participate as I might not have enough time but hopefully maybe I could submit something if it's game-related and a genre I like to make.
KermMartian wrote:
KeithJohansen wrote:
I'm game for a programming contest. But, I have to ask. If there's two categories, will there be identical prizes for 1<sup>st</sup>/2<sup>nd</sup>/3<sup>rd</sup> for each?

Also, I need to get back into TI programming. I still have two games to finish (3 if I get off my lazy butt about a physics engine). This could definitely spark my desire to code again ^^
So what I was thinking (and this is subject to change) would be to pick maybe 1<sup>st</sup>, 2<sup>nd</sup>, and 3<sup>rd</sup> in each category, and then come up with an overall 1<sup>st</sup>, 2<sup>nd</sup>, and 3<sup>rd</sup>? That might not be the most fair, but it might also be awkward (and unfair) to try to compare good ASM programs and good BASIC programs.
Not if you just compare the basics: gameplay value, replayability, usability, concept, etc. Just throw out speed, graphics, etc.

Also, fix that sup HTML rendering >:[
DJ Omnimaga wrote:
Seems interesting. I don't know if I will participate as I might not have enough time but hopefully maybe I could submit something if it's game-related and a genre I like to make.
Definitely. Since the most popular type of contest would invariably by games (if it wasn't general), I can't imagine whatever the final choice will be would exclude you writing a game for it.

@ComicIDIOT: I suppose that could work. Do you (or anyone else of course) have ideas on what would be fair in terms of allowing people to solicit help, allowing people to publish information, allowing people to use existing code? In the past we've strictly forbidden all three, but I'm seeing that Omnimaga seems to be positively benefiting from allowing a small measure of all three, so I'm wavering on that point.

I'd also appreciate the opinions of my fellow contest guru, Rivereye.
Soliciting help wouldn't be fair. Some guy may obtain help from his ASM master buddy and another might get help from a buddy he's learning BASIC with.

At the minimum, allow users to publish info in locked topics only they can post in or by posting source and asking for any help (both in locked and unlocked) would be a disqualified.

Only updates and things they are working on without giving code examples.
comicIDIOT wrote:
Soliciting help wouldn't be fair. Some guy may obtain help from his ASM master buddy and another might get help from a buddy he's learning BASIC with.

At the minimum, allow users to publish info in locked topics only they can post in or by posting source and asking for any help (both in locked and unlocked) would be a disqualified.

Only updates and things they are working on without giving code examples.
OK, makes sense, I hear what you mean about soliciting help on the program itself. If I do decide to do a DCS-themed contest, I think it would be fair if people ask DCS-usage-related questions though, no? I also don't think it would be the end of the world if people asked for non-code-related help like sprites or ideas, no?
Looks like I picked the right time to start learning ASM and AXE Smile

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for people to ask DCS related questions. But to those giving the advice, it'd be a good idea to stay a bit reserved and let those asking the questions figure it out for themselves. An explanation here and there, and a good nudge in the right direction should really be all it'll take to give them the minimal help they need/should receive. Smile
swivelgames wrote:
Looks like I picked the right time to start learning ASM and AXE Smile

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for people to ask DCS related questions. But to those giving the advice, it'd be a good idea to stay a bit reserved and let those asking the questions figure it out for themselves. An explanation here and there, and a good nudge in the right direction should really be all it'll take to give them the minimal help they need/should receive. Smile
I think that sounds fair, but what about people asking general questions about what they should use for their topic, and things like that? It would be hard to enforce keeping everyone reserved in giving advice, I think.
KermMartian wrote:
swivelgames wrote:
Looks like I picked the right time to start learning ASM and AXE Smile

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for people to ask DCS related questions. But to those giving the advice, it'd be a good idea to stay a bit reserved and let those asking the questions figure it out for themselves. An explanation here and there, and a good nudge in the right direction should really be all it'll take to give them the minimal help they need/should receive. Smile
I think that sounds fair, but what about people asking general questions about what they should use for their topic, and things like that? It would be hard to enforce keeping everyone reserved in giving advice, I think.
Indeed it would be hard to enforce, but I think it's perfectly acceptable to deny participants the privileges to do these things. It's your contest-entry, you shouldn't need help coming up with an idea. If you do, then it's not your contest-entry, it's someone else with your code.

As for coding help, it's quite trivial. I think all questions should be moderated, since some would be more questionable then others that could be more acceptable.

If that's too complicated, I'm all for having a strict policy against asking questions related to contest entry projects.
I think I can deal with some nuances, at least to start with. If people are abusing it, I'd be happy to start to be more strict about it. I'd like to hear from a few more people that a DCS-themed contest would be something they'd like to participate in, and then I'll get this show on the road.
Ok, here are some thoughts from Contest Man himself.

1. This is something that would really help people learn about the new features of DCS7. I would hope

2. If we do ASM and BASIC submissions, it does complicate things a bit. Nothing I don't think Kerm and Myself could handle though. I might have an idea or two here.

3. Ideas should be ones own in any contest. That is the idea of a contest I would think. On top of that, judging should be done on the quality of the code written and the execution. However, if we put maybe a list of ideas people could pull from to get started, that may not be a bad idea.

4. As for help, always a tricky issue I would say. I would think theory of how to do something would be okay, but actual lines of code shouldn't be allowed to be given. Again, this one is a tricky thing to decide the exactness of what you want.

4/A. As for DCS related items (especially the new 7 features), I would say it is fine, if people need questions on how to get DCS to do what is needed (or if a Bug is found while using it).

5. As for non-code items, I could say that we need to limit how much of this we do. Maybe allow use of previously and publicly released items in that regard, and allow modification if needed to make it fit. You can build your own sprites of course from scratch.
What would be the approximate entries publishing date? If it's not before September 16th, 12 AM GMT-5, would people be allowed to submit modified versions (meeting Cemetech contest requirements) of their Omnimaga Axe contest entry to the Cemetech contest? Our rules allow submitting entries to multiple contests, but as long as they are not released in public before that date.
If people would be interested in that, I guess it would not be an issue really. However, I think that Kerm was thinking an earlier submission date, and if that is true, I would hold off on announcing the winners and that until after the Omnimaga contest is over. If I am wrong and our submission date is later, I would hope that you would respect the same.

And, would we want to allow people to be eligible for prizes from both contests?
rivereye wrote:
Ok, here are some thoughts from Contest Man himself.

1. This is something that would really help people learn about the new features of DCS7. I would hope
Excellent, me too.

rivereye wrote:
2. If we do ASM and BASIC submissions, it does complicate things a bit. Nothing I don't think Kerm and Myself could handle though. I might have an idea or two here.
I'd limit it to ASM-only, but I think that would severely limit the number of entries.

rivereye wrote:
3. Ideas should be ones own in any contest. That is the idea of a contest I would think. On top of that, judging should be done on the quality of the code written and the execution. However, if we put maybe a list of ideas people could pull from to get started, that may not be a bad idea.
Sounds like a plan, I can get on-board with that.

rivereye wrote:
4. As for help, always a tricky issue I would say. I would think theory of how to do something would be okay, but actual lines of code shouldn't be allowed to be given. Again, this one is a tricky thing to decide the exactness of what you want.
Indeed. I want people to feel like they're not completely on their own, but I also don't want people to be taking ideas and chunks of code and artwork wholesale from others.

rivereye wrote:
4/A. As for DCS related items (especially the new 7 features), I would say it is fine, if people need questions on how to get DCS to do what is needed (or if a Bug is found while using it).
Definitely.

rivereye wrote:
5. As for non-code items, I could say that we need to limit how much of this we do. Maybe allow use of previously and publicly released items in that regard, and allow modification if needed to make it fit. You can build your own sprites of course from scratch.
What about the use of existing libraries? Limit it to Doors CS' built-in routines, or allow use of third-party code? I guess this refers mainly to ASM programs.
Libraries can be useful to have in coding. It would have to be something that outside of DCS would have to be used in moderation. I am just trying to think of libraries people might need that DCS7 does not provide them.
rivereye wrote:
Libraries can be useful to have in coding. It would have to be something that outside of DCS would have to be used in moderation. I am just trying to think of libraries people might need that DCS7 does not provide them.
Well, say someone want to use something past the internal rendering routines that Doors CS contains but does not expose, like a clipped masked sprite routine, for instance (I should really expose that). Would it be reasonable for them to use a published routine by someone else? I tend to think yes, provided that they credit the original author, and get permission from him or her (if applicable). What do you think?
  
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