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Question everything, accept reality - it is a very good way for all (militant religious and militant atheist included) to be!

I do find it peculiar that there are people on both sides of the fence, who tend to have the exact same stance with regards to their respective beliefs; that is unwilling to accept the case for the opposing side, regardless of evidence.

Must be a human thing...


(I prefer more modern religious arguments ala Nintendo v Sony v Microsoft! Very Happy)
tr1p1ea wrote:
(I prefer more modern religious arguments ala Nintendo v Sony v Microsoft! Very Happy)
I'd say Sega and Amiga ftw, but... neither of them really exist anymore :'( But they'll always be the true gods to me.

I had Jehovah's Witnesses around me during my youth. At around the age of 14 I opted out of being involved with it any longer, purely because it didn't interest me. My experience with people of that religion was that they were generally kind and friendly people, although obviously subtly (or not so subtly in some cases) trying to push their beliefs, which does annoy me somewhat, but as long as it's not causing anyone harm then it doesn't phase me too much.

I certainly agree with science and believing in what I can see with my own eyes, and I do have times where I get frustrated that religion exists because of the wars it has caused over the history of humanity. But I don't think religion will ever disappear, nor do I think it's fair to tell people they can't have religion in their life, just like I agree that it's not fair that a woman should be persecuted for choosing to have an abortion.

My post seems like it's a bit of a mixed message I suppose, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree that religion has caused a lot of problems, but I'm sure there are cases where it has provided solace for some individuals. If that is true, what is the right answer/solution?
I guess there's not much I can say on this topic. I guess first I should explain where I'm coming from. I consider myself a believer in evolution. I don't think that the earth is 16,000 years old. I'm also Mormon. But, well, for me, religion really doesn't conflict with either of those. In a purely doctrinal sense, I don't believe that God could have explained to anyone of that era about DNA, evolution, protein synthesis, etc. So instead, it's a record of 'I created this, I created this, I made this.'
To respond to some of your initial postings, Mateo, as well as some of the people on this thread, I honestly don't really want to respond to some of your ideas. I really have no way to change your mind, just as you have no way of changing mine, or any other person. I don't know everything about religion. But as for myself, I know that religion, as a whole, has made me a better person. I know that as I rely on Christ, I have been able to grow and change myself. And whether or not you believe in any of this, I would first challenge you to prove to me that I'm being lied to, before you launch a massive emotion filled post, that at least for me, kinda hurt. I feel like this could be a much more productive thread to ask for people's opinions without launching on an emotion filled attack on religion.
Sorry if this seemed kinda unkind. I'm running on about 3 hours of sleep so... yeeaah.
So I should start off by saying that there is a difference between religion and Christianity. Religion is man-made. Man is inherently with flaw or sin, so obviously religion would have the same affect. Christianity is a relationship with God and Jesus Christ. Way back when Christianity first started, the followers of Christ were not liked by the Jews or the Romans. The term “Christers”, or something of the like, was a deragatory word used towards those following the path that Jesus set for them. That is where the term Christian came from. It was created by Christ. Now you may not believe Jesus was the Son of God, and honestly, I’m not sure there is any scientific evidence proving that he was. Though, there is no scientific evidence proving otherwise. That’s where faith comes in.

I am a Christian. Recently in my youth bible study, we talked about what makes us believe what you believe, or in other words, why Christians have faith. I honestly believe that we had that discussion so I could bring this information to you (possibly others to bring it to others, but I know only what I know). As for every human, different evidence can be given to prove something to someone while it wouldn’t prove it to someone else. For me and my Youth Pastor, the very fact that so many thousands maybe even millions of people have died in Christ’s name and did not once renounce his name though they’re lives were threatened and they were beaten whether verbally, physically, mentally, or a combination thereof. Other people can be convinced just by the History of the Old Testament. There is evidence to a global flood, however science more or less blames it on plate tectonics over millions of years. Fossils of marine life have been found at high altitudes, in the middle of barren deserts, and in other places you wouldn’t expect to find them. Beyond that, an Egyptian army was found at the bottom of the Red Sea, where Moses split the Sea so the Israelites could cross. Lots of other things have been found that prove certain things in the Bible, however, I do not know all of them, but I know where I can find them. (Archeological Bibles are a great resource for this). There was also a Roman guy, who’s name I believe was Josephous (I may have spelled his name wrong. Sounds like: Jo-sea-fous) who recorded all the events of Jesus’s ministry. Secular primary source.

All of this evidence points in one direction, that God is real and Jesus was his son. However, there’s no real evidence for that nor against it. That’s where the leap of faith happens.

To clear up the beginning of the world argument, nobody knows how old this earth is. The science behind macroevolution and the 4 billion year old earth is false and you can go research and find that. There is no real science actually supporting that. I urge you to do the math instead of use faith to believe what many scientists say. Also, to say that the Big Bang happened is a leap of faith. Were any of us there? No. It’s just a theory. Sure, God could have made everything in a Big Bang. Who cares though? He made it. Now we’re here. Move on. One day, we will know what happened, but for now, let’s focus on what’s really important. Now, to make sure everyone understands my earlier argument, macroevolution is the belief, yes belief, that everything alive on this planet came from one original cell. First of all, that original cell is said to come from high amounts of energy on a watery rock. That never happens these days so it doesn’t make logical sense, but again a theory that takes a leap of faith. Second of all, macroevolution is based off the belief that similar bone structures, similar DNA, and a bunch of other similar stuff proves that spiecies evolve into new species. No such thing has been proven, and, for those of you who have taken a statistics course, correlation does not mean causation. Charles Darwin, the father of this theory, even said that if it didn’t happen within an amount of time (I want to say he said 50 years), his theory is wrong. Instead, secular scientists who were very much against Christianity and faith, produced a convincing lie that it took millions of years. Yet we still teach Charles Darwin today in our classes and neglet to through up there that “he was wrong” in this one tiny aspect.

In conclusion, I say to you all, faith is not limited to Christianity or religion. So be careful when you discount it, because no one person is without faith in something.

I hope this was informative.
I believe that invisible farting pixies created the universe, not the big bang. Evolution is wrong because it was actually aliens guiding a species along. The earth is flat because the bible says so. (It does).

Prove me wrong.




The issue with faith is that I can believe any of the above, and there is no way to either prove it, or to disprove it. (Well, except the flat earth). Faith is based not on reason or logic, as you said, but is that a good reason to believe anything? Should one defend faith or what is true? If I have faith in something, does that make it true? What if my faiths change? Is my first faith then incorrect?

I do not want to make this topic about Christianity, or about any other religion. Yes, Christianity is a religion with 41,000 different denominations worldwide. If you believe that Jesus is God, son of God, or similar, you are a Christian. I don't care. This topic is about the reliability of faith.

If you are religions though, consider this: If you woke up tomorrow and it turned out Hinduism was actually the right religion, would you be happy? Why haven't you looked at Hinduism; or perhaps Buddhism? If millions of people believe something, doesn't that make it more valid?

A quick something that stuck out to me:

Quote:
Man is inherently with flaw or sin


Is this a belief or a truth? If you believe it, who provides the cure for this inherent flaw, and why is the person providing the cure the same person who created the flaw in the first place? I can say that Man created sin, but what is sin? Isn't sin just something that goes against God? So who created sin?

Seanlego, I responded to some of your claims. I really hope that you read it: http://www.rafb.me/results/dUsb6X24.html
What's astounding to me is the cherry-picking of data when it comes to the choice to believe religion over science.

When people say a ~2700 year old text is the correct and indisputable version of or explanation of events when it provides absolutely no quantifiable evidence except for "blessed are those who believe without seeing", and choose to discard scientific explanations that have an array of citations, mathematical and physical evidence... and then say "I don't believe the science because there's no proof". It makes me hit my head against the wall.

For example:

"No-one was there during the big bang and thus we do not know".. Why does that statement seem to only come up when it is against science? Mathematics that proves a flood happened, or that the cloak Jesus was buried in is accepted without question, yet the equations likening our universe to the inversion of a black hole, the precise location, spread, and rate of expansion of the universe, the presence of dark energy, the existence of cosmic microwave background radiation and light TODAY still left over from a Big Bang-type event... all of which mathematically equate to a Big Bang ... those are not given the same treatment.

"Evolution didn't happen, it's unproven"
Evidence that species evolve can be found even today, right in front of our very eyes. Look at the flu epidemic this year. There are way more powerful strains of the flu and they have become more resistant to medications. The same occurs for bacterial strains. That IS evolution in action. It is being PHYSICALLY proven right in front of your eyes. The ability of a life form to ADAPT to its environment is a core principle of evolution. It's small changes in a species like that over time that cause a species to evolve, someone doesn't wave a magic wand and cause a monkey to become a person. Evolution is a very slow process.
The bible doesn't actually disprove evolution either. During Second Creation Story, when we see that God brought all the animals to Adam and Eve and he named them, that's more or less a faster depiction of evolution. Those animals were being "created" one after another. And in another place in the Bible... two actually... we are told that measurements of time are kinda messed up in the Bible. First we see something to the effect of "A day is like 1000 years". Then at another point we are told "All that you see is the blink of an eye to my father". That's more or less spelling out for us that when the Bible gives a timeframe, don't take it at face value.


To take this discussion a bit further:
I once read an interesting theory that tosses a theory called temporal dilation into the mix. Temporal dilation is the tendency of time itself to speed up or slow down relative to an observer in response to a change in an object's velocity. This has been proven as the clocks on rockets that move through space or atmosphere at high speeds always register an earlier time than clocks on earth, indicating that time has slown down. This behavior is also mathematically proven to exist around black holes, and in a particle accelerator (just google proof of temporal dilation)

If we accept this as fact, and then accept that the Big Bang occurred and caused all matter and energy in the universe to be flung outward at an extreme rate of speed, you already have an incredible slowdown in time. So the events of Creation 1, which take 7 Biblical days can quite reasonably map out the scientific explanations for how the universe began. The events of Creation 2 can reasonably map out to the events of evolution. If we also accept as fact the quantifiable theory that the universe continues it's expansion at an increasing speed, then it also follows that for every second that passes, time itself continues to slow down. Meaning that "Biblical" days become longer and longer.
INB4

Faith is entirely the choice of the individual's parents x.x. If you strongly gravitate towards a religion, nobody should be able to change that. Only you.

I could strongly believe that flying toasters created the Earth, however unlikely. If, say, Mateo came up to me and said my religion is really messed up, I wouldn't care. Despite the fact that he is probably right, I could continue to worship my toaster-gods.

Though you might personally agree with the arguments presented by ACag, Mateo, and others, that doesn't mean you need to give up your indoctrination religion.

Just go to your local place of worship (or wherever the next step is easiest). Ask someone knowledgeable about your faith. Chances are, they will have already come up with some crappy excuse explaining this part of your religion.

Though all of this is implied in the thread, I think it is a good idea to post it anyways.
What if super-advanced aliens came to earth and they had some kind of religious belief system?
Okay, so I know this is somewhat of an old topic but I felt the need to come back to it this year.

About a year ago at this time I would’ve ignorantly fought, or did fight you over what you’ve said here. But I woke up this year in 2019 and realized kind of the same things as you. I no longer like religion and no longer believe in anything related to it beyond just for personal growth.

For this reason and many others, I’ve figured that spirituality is preferable. And I’ve found a chart.

Andy Weir, the author behind the book, The Martian (later adapted to film) wrote an exceptional short story called "The Egg." It's easily my favorite story about religion and spirituality.

The basis of the story is that each religion gets parts right and wrong. The subject of the story (you) have died and interact with that story teller, who is a God. He explains these things to you and how you're every creature that's ever lived and ever will live. The God explains that you're still developing and one day you'll be a God too. I read it many years ago and it's resonated with me ever since.
Alex wrote:
Andy Weir, the author behind the book, The Martian (later adapted to film) wrote an exceptional short story called "The Egg." It's easily my favorite story about religion and spirituality.

The basis of the story is that each religion gets parts right and wrong. The subject of the story (you) have died and interact with that story teller, who is a God. He explains these things to you and how you're every creature that's ever lived and ever will live. The God explains that you're still developing and one day you'll be a God too. I read it many years ago and it's resonated with me ever since.

I loved that short story! (The Egg)
I studied it in English class a few years ago, and it really made me think.
I am agnostic because of it (iirc)
beckadamtheinventor wrote:
I am agnostic because of it (iirc)

Y'all need to watch the 3 minutes starting at this time: https://youtu.be/b8xwJ5S_UUo?t=75
MateoConLechuga wrote:
beckadamtheinventor wrote:
I am agnostic because of it (iirc)

Y'all need to watch the 3 minutes starting at this time: https://youtu.be/b8xwJ5S_UUo?t=75

Great speech but I can't tell whether he's attacking agnostics too or if that's just how he's presenting it.

One of the things I've been thinking about lately is just how many people are looking for God, but no one seems to want to look for the hard truth and actual wisdom. Sure, I don't actually know what it's like inside other peoples heads but from what I can tell there are billions of people living in the past, and only a few of us actually want to challenge what we've been taught.

Going back to the video, I'd like to point out what the girl said at 10:30 "life is hard" and 10:53 "believe in something that gets you through the day." So yeah, of course life is hard but it's even harder when you believe in something that disguises itself as "empowering" but really keeps you a slave to the system. Hopefully I'm not sounding like a psycho here but I've realized we have tons of people trying to "get through the day" and not enough people challenging what we've all been told to believe.
Michael2_3B wrote:
One of the things I've been thinking about lately is just how many people are looking for God, but no one seems to want to look for the hard truth and actual wisdom. Sure, I don't actually know what it's like inside other peoples heads but from what I can tell there are billions of people living in the past, and only a few of us actually want to challenge what we've been taught.

Guess what; you are in the minority. A lot of people will live their entire life not realizing how much their life means, and instead always be hoping for something better after they are gone.

Honestly I just find it sad; and I hope one day people can come together and realize that all you need is to treat people with respect and kindness. We can all laugh and say how crazy Scientology is, but many people are unwilling to recognize that their own beliefs are just as silly, if not more so. Indoctrination is one hell of a thing.

We should always be constantly reexamine the reasons we choose to believe something, and not be afraid to let go of it if necessary. Most of tradition is just peer pressure from dead people anyway.
  
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