Should breaking bedrock / building above the nether roof be allowed?
Both
 50%  [ 9 ]
Only building above the nether roof
 16%  [ 3 ]
Only breaking bedrock
 5%  [ 1 ]
Neither
 27%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 18

So, today I found out the hard way that building above the nether roof is not allowed. Perhaps we could discuss removing this rule, as I feel that it doesn't really add anything to gameplay, only removes possibilities.

Many farms need to be built in an area with no blocks around in order to run efficiently. Without access to the area above the nether roof, the only way to build a fast ghast/magma farm is to remove all the blocks in a large area of the nether, which is generally considered to be unsightly. Other farms require no blocks above them, which is obviously not possible while underneath bedrock.

I feel like the main reason that bedrock breaking was banned in the first place is that all methods of bedrock breaking are considered bugs. However, other bugs have been allowed on the server, including translocation, eggcatcher spawners, floating gravel, etc. Like these bugs, breaking bedrock does not upset game balance, so I feel that it should not be banned.

One more thing: This rule, like a few others including the "no building within sight of another player" rule, was not posted at spawn or on the forum. If the rule is not changed, could you please add it to the board at spawn so that it is more obvious to players?
Just going to post that I support being able to build above the nether roof. Having a super amazing gold farm like the donut would be nice to more easily get access to gold blocks for beacon bases.
commandblockguy wrote:
So, today I found out the hard way that building above the nether roof is not allowed. Perhaps we could discuss removing this rule, as I feel that it doesn't really add anything to gameplay, only removes possibilities.

Many farms need to be built in an area with no blocks around in order to run efficiently. Without access to the area above the nether roof, the only way to build a fast ghast/magma farm is to remove all the blocks in a large area of the nether, which is generally considered to be unsightly. Other farms require no blocks above them, which is obviously not possible while underneath bedrock.


Like the last 1.12 server, we run on same hardware that runs the Cemetech site. We prioritize the website above Minecraft. As such, resources are limited and to help create a consistent experience for everyone we ask that users create farms that are sustainable, and work within the resources allotted for the MC server. As such, we are staying firm that users shouldn't build above the nether.

Quote:
I feel like the main reason that bedrock breaking was banned in the first place is that all methods of bedrock breaking are considered bugs. However, other bugs have been allowed on the server, including translocation, eggcatcher spawners, floating gravel, etc. Like these bugs, breaking bedrock does not upset game balance, so I feel that it should not be banned.


What you feel and what you know are two different things. We didn't say breaking bedrock was banned, we said building above the nether and below the world (including the nether) was banned for the reasons stated above.

Quote:
One more thing: This rule, like a few others including the "no building within sight of another player" rule, was not posted at spawn or on the forum. If the rule is not changed, could you please add it to the board at spawn so that it is more obvious to players?


It was never posted because that was never a rule. You can build within sight of another player. If you're going to be neighbors with someone it's a courtesy to ask if you can build there -- they may have plans for that particular area -- but it's not a rule that you have to be out of sight.

I don't even know how we'd enforce that as players play with different render distances. One player might have a render distance of 3 chunks and another might have it set to the server max. Then within sight of what, exactly? The edge of their town? Within sight of their town center? Or some other arbitrary marker?
Out of curiosity, what is it about building above bedrock in the Nether that uses more resources? Is it a case of if there are solid blocks above Y=128 then more sub chunks have to be factored into mob spawning, etc.?
Quote:
However, other bugs have been allowed on the server, including translocation, eggcatcher spawners, floating gravel, etc.
Using a bug to get an advantage over another player has always been against both the spirit and letter of the rule on the server. EggCatcher spawners were an intended feature, not a bug, floating gravel gives you no benefit of which I'm aware, and I'm not sure what you mean by translocation in this context. In this case, breaking through the roof (which isn't an intended Minecraft feature) to get to build a powerful farm that (1) lets you get a lot more gold than other players, and (2) actually potentially reduces the ability for other players to get gold by filling the mob cap is definitely against the spirit of the server.
Quote:
Out of curiosity, what is it about building above bedrock in the Nether that uses more resources? Is it a case of if there are solid blocks above Y=128 then more sub chunks have to be factored into mob spawning, etc.?

Sub chunks for mob spawning were removed in 1.13. Even if they weren't, it wouldn't make a difference resource-wise as subchunks only affect how mob spawns are distributed, not how many occur.

Quote:
As such, resources are limited... we are staying firm that users shouldn't build above the nether.

I'm not sure how having builds above the nether roof increases the resource load on the server, as a player above the nether roof uses significantly less resources than a player below the roof. The primary lag-causing factor is mob AI, and whenever the player is below the nether roof there is guaranteed to be a number of laggy pigmen approximately equal to the mobcap loaded at one time. On the other hand, for a player far above the roof, mobs can only spawn on the limited number of player-placed blocks above the roof, meaning the number of mobs will usually be much less than the mobcap.

You could argue that simply being above the nether roof isn't what causes the lag, but the farms that players will build up there that drains resources. With building above the bedrock banned, players will probably build farms under the bedrock ceiling instead. These farms are slower, and therefore need to be bigger to get even close to the same rates as ones above the bedrock. Bigger farms cause more lag, which, in addition to the fact that the area under the bedrock is laggier, and that slower farms mean people will have to stay in the area longer to get the same amount of gold.

Quote:
It was never posted because that was never a rule.

Quote:
Super tifreak8x » I thought we mentioned somewhere in spawn that you need to build around 100 blocks away from the nearest person, but maybe not
Member commandblockguy » I don't remember seeing that anywhere
Super tifreak8x » yep, seems I had intended on it, but didn't implement it

I probably interpreted this as "I was going to make a sign for a rule we currently have" rather than "I was going to make a rule and add a sign for it," sorry.

Quote:
Using a bug to get an advantage over another player has always been against both the spirit and letter of the rule on the server. EggCatcher spawners were an intended feature, not a bug, floating gravel gives you no benefit of which I'm aware, and I'm not sure what you mean by translocation in this context. In this case, breaking through the roof (which isn't an intended Minecraft feature) to get to build a powerful farm that (1) lets you get a lot more gold than other players, and (2) actually potentially reduces the ability for other players to get gold by filling the mob cap is definitely against the spirit of the server.

Translocation was a bug that existed from 1.9 until 1.11 where retracting pistons could pull players and other entities through them. This was heavily used in farms and elevators, which definitely gave players an advantage over players who did not use it.

I don't see how eggcatcher spawners were an intended feature. EggCatcher was released before the vanilla feature of spawner changing was introduced, so the developer of EggCatcher could not have intended spawn eggs to be used in that way. When Mojang introduced the spawner-changing feature, they did not intend for it to be used alongside EggCatcher, because they develop the vanilla game. Unless you mean that it is not a bug because it is intended by you, the server admins. In which case, this thread is requesting that you, the admins, make breaking bedrock and building above the nether roof an intended feature, the way that changing spawners was an intended feature on the last map.

Additionally, there is a way to get on top of the bedrock (but not break the bedrock) using only the intended mechanics of ender pearls. This means that while breaking bedrock is a bug, it doesn't actually affect the power balance of the game, as you could still make farms above the nether roof using no bugs. It's only the minor convenience of being able to travel between the two without using pearls and /home that you gain from breaking bedrock.

Building a farm above the nether roof will not reduce the mob cap for players below it, who will be outside the despawn radius. On the other hand, building a gold farm below the bedrock would.
commandblockguy wrote:
Quote:
It was never posted because that was never a rule.

Quote:
Super tifreak8x » I thought we mentioned somewhere in spawn that you need to build around 100 blocks away from the nearest person, but maybe not
Member commandblockguy » I don't remember seeing that anywhere
Super tifreak8x » yep, seems I had intended on it, but didn't implement it

I probably interpreted this as "I was going to make a sign for a rule we currently have" rather than "I was going to make a rule and add a sign for it," sorry.
It's something I definitely support, among other things to give people room to expand!

Quote:
Translocation was a bug that existed from 1.9 until 1.11 where retracting pistons could pull players and other entities through them. This was heavily used in farms and elevators, which definitely gave players an advantage over players who did not use it.
Got it, thanks for clarifying. I don't think I ever personally was aware of that bug as a feature to be either used or abused.

Quote:
I don't see how eggcatcher spawners were an intended feature [...] Unless you mean that it is not a bug because it is intended by you, the server admins.
Yes, that.

Quote:
In which case, this thread is requesting that you, the admins, make breaking bedrock and building above the nether roof an intended feature, the way that changing spawners was an intended feature on the last map.
While you posit that players will just build bigger farms down below to make up the difference, I propose that the average player (I can think of one or perhaps two specific exceptions) will decide to be clever with a reasonable, certainly not small, amount of gold, and not try to get themselves to the gold output of a nether-ceiling farm if they can't build a farm up there. I'll keep pondering how this fits into our general effort to be a home for "intellectual survival".

Quote:
Additionally, there is a way to get on top of the bedrock (but not break the bedrock) using only the intended mechanics of ender pearls.
There was a way to get inside towns on the last map using only the intended mechanics of chorus fruit. Didn't make it any less of an obvious abuse of the spirit of the rules to use it to break into someone's Monument and mess with his stuff. Wink Out of curiosity, could Chorus Fruit help you with this as well?

Quote:
This means that while breaking bedrock is a bug, it doesn't actually affect the power balance of the game, as you could still make farms above the nether roof using no bugs. It's only the minor convenience of being able to travel between the two without using pearls and /home that you gain from breaking bedrock.
Other than the explicit rule that we have against nether-roof farms for performance reasons, as reinforced by the player who took it upon themselves to flagrantly flout that rule the last time around. Again, will continue pondering this and confer with the rest of the staff.
Quote:
While you posit that players will just build bigger farms down below to make up the difference, I propose that the average player (I can think of one or perhaps two specific exceptions) will decide to be clever with a reasonable, certainly not small, amount of gold, and not try to get themselves to the gold output of a nether-ceiling farm if they can't build a farm up there.

Some math:

Code:
for a mob farm where most spawning spaces are not part of the farm:
rates = (drops per mob) * (% of spawning spaces inside the farm) * (mob cap) / (mob despawn rate)
(This isn't entirely accurate, as the higher the %, the faster the average mob respawn time is, but it's close enough as long as the farm isn't killing pigmen instantly and more than 70% of the spawning area has been slabbed or removed)

average mob despawn rate = 57 seconds^1

mob cap = 70 / player

Let's say that you have a large number of spawning spaces, so that 10% of all spawning spaces are part of the farm.
1.5 * 70 * 10% / 57 = 663 dph = 30 hours for a beacon

for farms where all spawning spaces are part of the farm (ex. those above the bedrock):
rates = (drops per mob) * mobcap / (spawn-to-death time)

1.5 * 70 / 30 = 12600 dph

ilmango farm = 12555 dph = 1.6 hours for a beacon

The only ways to increase the percentage of spawning spaces inside the farm are to move above the nether roof, make a ridiculously large farm (which causes lag issues), remove the majority of our tiny nether, or to slab up basically every block to stop spawns. The latter two are not possible because that would be infringing on others' builds. And 30 hours is a really long amount of time to AFK for just one beacon base, which is the primary reason that people build gold farms - this is by no means fast. I assume that people will probably want to have a spawning space percentage of more than 10%.
There is another option, where farms can move the player back and forth to cause mobs to despawn quickly (after 20 seconds), but loading and unloading chunks also causes lag.

Quote:
There was a way to get inside towns on the last map using only the intended mechanics of chorus fruit. Didn't make it any less of an obvious abuse of the spirit of the rules to use it to break into someone's Monument and mess with his stuff. Wink Out of curiosity, could Chorus Fruit help you with this as well?
The difference is that chorus fruits were banned because they were used in a way which violated the existing server rule of "don't go in people's bases without permission." It's circular logic to say that building above the bedrock is against the rules because the only way to get above bedrock is to exploit a bug, and then say that a non-buggy way to get on top of the bedrock should not be allowed because it violates the rule which says you can't go above bedrock.

The wiki doesn't say that it won't teleport you above the nether ceiling, but the wiki is wrong about a bunch of things. I would honestly be surprised if you couldn't use them to get above the ceiling, as this is Mojang we are talking about here.

Quote:
Other than the explicit rule that we have against nether-roof farms for performance reasons, as reinforced by the player who took it upon themselves to flagrantly flout that rule the last time around.

This "explicit" rule wasn't actually posted anywhere. And I still don't see how having farms above the nether roof causes any more lag than having farms below the nether roof. If a farm caused lag on the last iteration, it was probably because it was either poorly lag-optimized, or the design that was selected focused on speed over lag efficiency. Not all nether roof farms are poorly optimized. Standard "doughnut" gold farms don't use that much more CPU time than standard ambient nether conditions.
*bump*

Has a decision been reached on this?

Putting the nether roof aside for a minute, I've also heard contradictory statements about whether it is currently against the rules to break bedrock or build within sight of another player. What are the current rules?
  1. No building above the nether roof, or below the bedrock layer of the worlds.
  2. No breaking bedrock.
  3. As I said in my first post here, there's literally no way we can enforce a rule of "No building in sight of another player." It's of course polite to ask potential neighbors if you can build next to them, and definitely try and keep a some distance so both you and your neighbor have room to grow and expand. But you can certainly build within sight of another player.
    • I'm not going to spend my time, nor ask the moderators and admins to spend theirs, counting blocks between neighbors over some petty "They built within X chunks/blocks of my invisible and arbitrary town border!"
    • Sight is such a random thing too, you may have a chunk render distance of 16 but another player has 5, thus when they build their town 6-7 chunks away they aren't "within sight of your town" but you can see theirs. It's stupid. I'm not enforcing that.
  
Register to Join the Conversation
Have your own thoughts to add to this or any other topic? Want to ask a question, offer a suggestion, share your own programs and projects, upload a file to the file archives, get help with calculator and computer programming, or simply chat with like-minded coders and tech and calculator enthusiasts via the site-wide AJAX SAX widget? Registration for a free Cemetech account only takes a minute.

» Go to Registration page
Page 1 of 1
» All times are UTC - 5 Hours
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 

Advertisement