pimathbrainiac wrote:
Just let the people do what they want to do. It does not matter.


It may actually matter very much, but that doesn't mean I have the right to get involved. The point is that how much I think it matters (or not) should not be embedded in the legal system.
Quote:
And it is actually important that the legal system is involved in our romances through the institution of marriage, because a legal marriage states that the government -a-n-d- -t-h-e- -c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y- approves and thus has the obligation to protect your family. They can't break it and others can't infiltrate it unless you allow them to.

This is a fiction invented by the French government after their genocide against Catholics at the end of the 18th century as a method of further societal control against religious people.

Civil marriage laws have about as ugly a history as gun control and forced resettlement when it comes to tools of oppression and societal control.

Your community and your government (at every level but the most local) have very little to do with one another.
elfprince13 wrote:
Quote:
And it is actually important that the legal system is involved in our romances through the institution of marriage, because a legal marriage states that the government -a-n-d- -t-h-e- -c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y- approves and thus has the obligation to protect your family. They can't break it and others can't infiltrate it unless you allow them to.

This is a fiction invented by the French government after their genocide against Catholics at the end of the 18th century as a method of further societal control against religious people.

Civil marriage laws have about as ugly a history as gun control and forced resettlement when it comes to tools of oppression and societal control.

Your community and your government (at every level but the most local) have very little to do with one another.


There are quite a few gay spouses without legal citizenship who would disagree with you. They can't voice their disagreement because they've already been deported by a government that did not recognize their marriage.
Quote:
OK, maybe not the community, but definitely the government, or the church that officiates your marriage. For instance, the Fifth Amendment (that says you can't testify against yourself) has also been interpreted by the Supreme Court to mean that your spouse doesn't have to testify against you either. The community can still hate you or be jealous of you all they want, and when I said "the community", I was referring to the fact that they still have to honor the marriage even if they don't want to.


Precisely. In other words, part of the government needs to recognize your marriage so that the rest of the government is forced to respect your rights as a couple in all other legal matters(hospital visitation, death benefits, immigration status, 5th amendment protections, etc.).
DShiznit wrote:
There are quite a few gay spouses without legal citizenship who would disagree with you. They can't voice their disagreement because they've already been deported by a government that did not recognize their marriage.

Which is to say: civil marriage laws have been used as tools of oppression to drive them out of their home. Which is to say, my point exactly.

DShiznit wrote:
Precisely. In other words, part of the government needs to recognize your marriage so that the rest of the government is forced to respect your rights as a couple in all other legal matters(hospital visitation, death benefits, immigration status, 5th amendment protections, etc.).

You really oughtn't have rights as a couple at all, any more than a corporation should have rights as a corporation. But neither should you lose any of your individual rights just because you participate in a joint enterprise of one sort or another.
Cross-posting from the Ender's Game Anticipation thread, to redirect any political conversation, and to serve as a hook for anyone who might be interested in LGBT rights and not otherwise see the relevant discussion from that thread.

elfprince13 wrote:
Also, the fan community over at Philotic Web have organized a campaign as a sort of "political offset" to voice our consternation over Orson Scott Card's stance on LGBT rights. While we love his work, and even recognize that he's definitely not a "homophobe" or "gay-hater" or any of the other nasty words that get thrown around in debates over this issue, we do oppose his stances on public policy with regards to LGBT rights. If you're in the same boat, and concerned about the idea that your money might be indirectly routed to the National Organization for Marriage (or similar activist organizations) by way of your ticket (or book) purchases, you might consider participating in this campaign, rather than simply participating in a boycott as others (i.e. Geeks OUT) are calling for.
http://www.razoo.com/team/Endersgamefans4equality

To forestall this thread devolving in policy debate, please direct any comments on that score (as opposed to discussion of the campaign itself or the film) to our existing Same-Sex Marriage topic. I'll cross-reference this post there as a starting point.
So when you buy the book or a ticket to the movie, you make an equal donation to this thing and then that money goes to groups that fight the anti-gay groups that book or movie ticket sale would support? Neat.
DShiznit wrote:
So when you buy the book or a ticket to the movie, you make an equal donation to this thing and then that money goes to groups that fight the anti-gay groups that book or movie ticket sale would support? Neat.


Exactly.
I don't support same-sex marrige on a morale level, as I am Christain, but I beleive state and church should be seperate, and since America is free, it should be legal.

Although I'm christian, there are times when I fell gay, but overal I would rather be married to a girl, so I say I'm heterosexual. I also have alot to say about "LGBT" but I'll make another topic about that.
>2014
>still talking about gay marriage
allynfolksjr wrote:
>2014
>still talking about gay marriage


Exactly, it is almost literally the least important issue in the nation and yet it's 2014 and people still are putting it on the level of immigration reform, homelessness prevention, economic reform, environmental protection, abortion/life debates, reform of the 2 party system and attempts to decrease government corruption, NSA, extreme government spending, etc.

It's still degeneracy (religion or not, come on, we all know it's pretty degenerate, whether you deny it or not) and being 2014 doesn't change that, but again it's unimportant compared to almost everything else, so I'm mostly neutral. By neutral, I think the battle is won/lost (depending on what side you're on), and that gay rights will prevail -- I'm just hoping it resolves quickly and we can focus on something of actual importance. Everyone will pretend it's the same as 1960's civil rights when it's obviously not, and we'll have lots of celebration over historically gay figures and have a national "Walt Whitman was Gay" day or whatever. Fine, it's already going to happen. There is absolutely no point in arguing about the legality or morality of it any further, realistically.

The gay movement has grabbed control of the media and no matter how unimportant the movement is, the perceived "sexual and marital rights" of a small minority of the country are going to overshadow more important issues that plague larger groups for many years to come.
Jeez! Why is gay marriage such a problem?!? Marriage is marriage is marriage is marriage. They talk about religion, but that line in the bible is something about not making natural desires into unnatural ones, which could mean anything. If a guy likes guys or a girl likes girls, who are we to argue? It's just like racism to discriminate against them. I mean, it's not like they are getting married with animals.
The Bible wrote:
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing of water through the word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. (Ephesians 5:22-28 NIV)

This is why marriage is important.
Well, we apparently can't go a year without the topic resurfacing, and since the bible verses are starting to get tossed around again, I figured now would be a good time to remind everyone to not be jerks:
elfprince13 wrote:
Just a reminder to keep everything civil. I think this is an important issue, and worthy of discussion, but the use of mockery or epithets will not be tolerated. Everything seems okay so far, but I can feel the temperature in here rising, so this is the official call to keep it calm, cool, and collected.

Remember that issues of religion, sexuality, and gender are all deeply personal, and more than most conversations, this one has the potential to sting.


Also, I think everyone would benefit from actually reading the thread before posting in here, as basically everything has already been covered. You're probably not going to add anything new to the discussion, and it's just going to go in the same circles it has been going in since 2010.
merthsoft wrote:
Well, we apparently can't go a year without the topic resurfacing, and since the bible verses are starting to get tossed around again, I figured now would be a good time to remind everyone to not be jerks:
elfprince13 wrote:
Just a reminder to keep everything civil. I think this is an important issue, and worthy of discussion, but the use of mockery or epithets will not be tolerated. Everything seems okay so far, but I can feel the temperature in here rising, so this is the official call to keep it calm, cool, and collected.

Remember that issues of religion, sexuality, and gender are all deeply personal, and more than most conversations, this one has the potential to sting.


Also, I think everyone would benefit from actually reading the thread before posting in here, as basically everything has already been covered. You're probably not going to add anything new to the discussion, and it's just going to go in the same circles it has been going in since 2010.


Ecclesiastes 1 wrote:
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.


If this topic is important to you, take the time to read all 20+ pages, take notes, and formulate something thoughtful / original to say. If you can't be bothered and/or you're just spouting off, your posts aren't welcome here. Which is to say, impress me, or this topic is just going to be locked and will go to an "approved posts" only format, wherein you can PM me with the content of a hypothetical post asking for permission to post it.


I'm done here.
Why do we have an over 20-page debate on same sex-marriage? If you are religious, than fine, do what you believe in and whats happened over the last thousands of years. If you're for same-sex marriage. Fine, than go for it. There's nothing in the way of that. If you can' stand same-sex marriage than don't expose yourself to forums like this. (sigh), what has this world come to. Once upon a time, you had to "date" a girl in front of the father, and if all things went well you got married. Maybe if we went back to that we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate (No, I seriously don't mean to actually go all 19th century again. Just saying... WTF has this world gotten to!?!? Mad
This is just a thread about people's different opinions. Also necropost Wink
Such a necropost x__x

That said, I'm not sure how old you are, but it was a much bigger deal then than it is now (even just a few years later).

I'm sure it seems 'obvious' to you that same sex marriage is no big deal, but to others it seems equally 'obvious' to oppose it. Both sides get instant gratification when they announce their views and people can chime in with, "yeah, our opinion is the obvious way, theirs is wrong."

Also, even if that 50% divorce statistic is true anymore, that's still leaving 50% of marriages being life long. And keep in mind that a lot of the divorces are from already divorced people. So ex. If there are 64 marriages and 32 divorce and remarry and then 16 of them divorce and remarry, etc, then there would end up being 127 marriages of which 63 end in divorce, but all but one ends in a marriage that lasts.

So like 98% of those couples end up married for life, resulting in a roughly 50% divorce rate Razz

From this report on baby boomers:
"Approximately 42 percent of marriages that took place between ages 15 and 46 ended in divorce by age 46."

The first report on this CDC page indicates similar rates and that marriage and divorce are declining.

Plus, if a marriage is leaving you feeling terrible and it can't be fixed, why stay in it? People grow and change and divorce can be the right choice. The stigma of divorce is pretty f'd up in my opinion.


In my opinion, marriage should be between one person and a harem of calculators. Polyamory ftw. As long as it's consensual, you do you.

EDIT: Holy heck, totally relevant ad:
Bible verse proving gay marriage wrong:

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Romans 1:24-27
  
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