<KermM_> I dislike that people use it as an excuse for not learning z80 ASM
<KermM_> whereas it should just be a stepping stone to ease the transition from BASIC to ASM, imho
<KermM_> It's very admirable work, of course, but I feel that any time someone makes something cool in Axe, the only person who really did any work was Quigibo
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them
<KermM_> Not to mention that it's not good for real applications and games, because it creates huge executables
<KermM_> [regarding finishing a lot of games fast] alberthro: that's not the idea of making calculator games, in my opinion
<KermM_> I feel it's to have a good time, and especially to be challenged to work with impossible constraints
<KermM_> if I wanted something where I could put together an impressive game fast, have tons of memory, and tons of speed, I would just write computer games
<KermM_> alberthro: they're only quality because they use Quigibo's hard work, imho, with a few notable exceptions, of course
<KermM_> But I don't feel they show any great programming skill, just some creative game design
<KermM_> I still respect the programmers of those games very much for their creativity, and for the perseverance and for actually finishing something
<KermM_> But it doesn't make me think they're awesome hackers.
<KermM_> The calculator community started as hardcore hackers who really know their way around hardware and software
<KermM_> And the community leaders are largely still people with those skills, eg. BrandonW, PatrickD, (myself?)
<KermM_> If these Axe coders really want to be true hackers in the positive sense, I feel they should use Axe for what it should be
<KermM_> A stepping stone to exercising their supposed skill and excellent problem solving skills in z80, to solve even harder problems with less, faster code that requires them to think a lot more about memory management, cycle-counting, and all that

<alberthro> The great thing about Axe, though, is that it lets people create great games faster. ;) I've seen very few decent games in pure Z80 ASM, and a LOT more in Axe these days. Why not? The thing that makes me like the game is the gameplay and the game itself, not what programming language it is in. :)
<alberthro> Ehh... not quite what I see. I see games that are of serious quality, not games that are programmed on the bus on the way back home. :P
<alberthro> Yeah, but so what? They add creativity and spirit to the program. :) So what if they don't have any skills? I value their ideas and effort more than what they used to build it.
<alberthro> Sure, they don't get my "wow awesome hax0r" points. But they do get my respect for putting effort into what they think is something great. :)

[Ashbad] While I have my complaints about Grammer (I still am unimpressed with the fact that simple cellular autonoma routines built into the language...) I am personally hopeful it'll be the cause of Axe losing it's heated popularity
[Ashbad] Axe is a crutch.. Grammer isn't.
[Ashbad] I'm even more inclined to simply call it the "Game Maker" of the 8x series.
[Ashbad] I'm sorry to comdemn it so, but I realized it once they added a "Pt-Get" command
[Ashbad] [Regarding ASM vs Axe games] alberthro, I see games that were made in one fifth of the time, and double the size
[Ashbad] But, the problem is that half of the community treats them as "uber hax0rs"
[Ashbad] And they are far from.

<KermM_> It's very admirable work, of course, but I feel that any time someone makes something cool in Axe, the only person who really did any work was Quigibo
<KermM_> It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them

I dislike that people use it as an excuse for not learning z80 ASM

I feel that any time someone makes something cool in Axe, the only person who really did any work was Quigibo

It doesn't say a whole lot about the programmer's skills; it rolls out grayscale and everything else for them

I see games that were made in one fifth of the time, and double the size

Do you agree with Alberthro, who thinks that even though they don't get points for being skilled code hackers, Axe programmers should get respect for finishing games fast?

it's quite possible to do just as badly if not worse in ASM that any other programming language. *cough* TI *cough*

Besides, language wars are dumb. What are you trying to do, just boost your own ego by assuring yourself that your work is more 'pure' or some a?

Is there any argument against Axe that cannot be applied to the "C vs. ASM" or "C vs. <Interpreted language>" debates with equal measure?

So what if they aren't as skilled? Take, for instance, Minecraft. It's 100% Java. Do I even care about his skills? Sure, it's slow, and it's buggy at times, which can be attributed to Java. But 99% of the world doesn't care - remember that he's the one rolling around in his newfound money!

Being a "hardcore" Axe game programmer myself, I wholeheartedly agree with what Quigibo said.

Also, the particles were a request and I thought about it for days how to implement it.I still have >9000 bytes to fill up in the App, so these little treats are nice and give an effect to easily take advantage of.

Erm, sorry if I offend anybody :/

also, one thing I do note is that the axe games I have seen so far are not as high quality as asm games, am I the only one who thinks this?

It's not a language war; nor is it a "purist" agenda being issued from Kerm, Me, Cemetech, etc. The notion of pushing aside the argument as a "language war" just seems to me to be very immature and uncalled for. A language war would be mindlessly saying "Axe sux" with no reasons; we aren't only giving reasons, but we're not even saying Axe sucks at all. We just find that the way it's being used is far different than how we think it should be used, and we're merely expressing our personal concerns.

RE: the "ego" argument, my ego doesn't revolve around small-time calculator programming and who uses what and how, and I'm quite positive Kerm feels the same. I'm not going to cut myself if someone uses Axe to make a cool-looking game, and I'm not going to feel depressed if people don't use Axe as a bridge. Such an accusation isn't very appropriate, or nice.

also, one thing I do note is that the axe games I have seen so far are not as high quality as asm games, am I the only one who thinks this?

Most languages have advantages and disadvantages and it is the programmers choice to figure which is the best to use.

What are you trying to do, just boost your own ego by assuring yourself that your work is more 'pure' or some a?

s there any argument against Axe that cannot be applied to the "C vs. ASM" or "C vs. <Interpreted language>" debates with equal measure?

et's also not forget that there's nothing preventing someone from creating a crappy ASM program. Unless you're reasonably competent, it's quite possible to do just as badly if not worse in ASM that any other programming language. *cough* TI *cough*

Even though I am generally against people who program exclusively in Axe, I think Axe will bring more aspiring programmers into the community, out of which some will become great z80 ASM coders.

also, one thing I do note is that the axe games I have seen so far are not as high quality as asm games, am I the only one who thinks this?

How do you call yourself a 'hacker' when you didn't even write the drivers for your computer that allow you to type your post. Or create your own instruction set architecture instead of unfairly mooching off of all the hard work of those engineers who invented z80, x86, and ARM. Sometimes you have to draw a line...

hear this a lot, but it really isn't the case. The actual size increase of a pure Axe program verses a pure assembly program is HUGELY dependent on how experienced the programmers are on both sides. "Double the size" is like comparing a new Axe programmer to an extreme optimizing assembler such as myself. By contrast, comparing two people with one year of experience in each language only gives the assembly programmer a very slight advantage.

The only reason I can think you'd have a problem with that is that you have to put in much more work to yield the same results.

Wow, this thread certainly got a lot of our inactive members to appear once again!

With all due respect, I think everyone was being very high-brow and discussing the languages themselves rather than their own emotions or egos, so I hope you'll join us in that intelligent discussion. I don't believe anyone criticized Axe for a lack of purity (unless you can point out such a statement, in which case I'll happily retract this), instead critiquing programmers who might otherwise have the skills to also explore ASM's power but haven't done so because they feel comfortable with Axe and believe that ASM is beyond their abilities. It's the same argument for people who rely of Java as a crutch when they could be using Python, C++, or a number of other languages better suited to whatever they're trying to make.