The fact is that TI-Planet could have provided some JS TI-Z80 emulator to its users for months. In fact, all of the integration work had already been silently performed months ago, but purposefully never shown to users.
That's because, indeed, we tried to find a way to cooperate and reduce work duplication, so that our users - and others - can leverage (and improve) the best TI-Z80 community emulator, namely jsTIfied.
I remember you thanking us for something along the lines of being patient and trying to find a solution, rather than reverse-engineer, rewrite and run away with your code. We could have done that, but didn't.

Obviously, for maximum usefulness of the emulator / lowest work duplication / best cooperation / etc., the emulator code needs to be as easy to embed as that of other emulators... and even better, easy to contribute to.
People are aware that jsTIfied is the best JS TI-Z80 emulator, and equally aware that (for historical reasons a number of persons in the community are aware of) jsTIfied isn't as easy to contribute to than many other community projects



Indeed.

... including yourself, if you wish. We do not aim at keeping too tight a control on the emulator and thereby reducing its usefulness. In fact, we're considering to have the code posted on Github
We're fully aware that an occasional prick could easily run away with the source code without a word of thanks, and pass other persons' work as his/her own. And what ? Chances are that attempts to do so could be detected: nobody in their right mind is going to start from scratch an emulator for a series of calculators (unfortunately) considered obsolete by the manufacturer for many years.
All we'll be asking for is an acknowledgment and a link - exactly what we offered you, on every single page which would have displayed jsTIfied on TI-Planet.


Seen from the other side, it wouldn't be unjustified to state that every argument from you has been wanting to keep yourself (too) tight control over jsTIfied
We can definitely understand that wish. However, as we have tried - and failed - to explain you multiple times, it's arguably not the best thing you can do, either for the community as a whole, or even for Cemetech... Simply put:
* people using other emulators <=> less links and less traffic for Cemetech;
* a harder-to-embed-than-necessary emulator, which does not fit some use cases, and an obfuscated source code (even if that is partially for the purposes of optimization, I know), has already triggered the development of another JS TI-Z80 emulator, which is maintained as an open source project on Github.


I think that by now, we can safely say that our relatively old attempts to handle the situation in a cooperative way have failed - and that hurt feelings ensue.
I think we have indicated, from the beginning, that we thought it was better to avoid code duplication and have jsTIfied be the one true best JS TI-Z80 community emulator. Maybe we were not explicit enough on what "community emulator" meant to us, I don't know.
It's likely that you posting a clear "no, I'm not after what you have in mind" from the beginning (*) would have been better than us waiting for the situation to be hopefully resolved (when you find some time, we know you have other projects useful to the community) in such a way that everybody could offer the best to users, and by waiting, depriving TI-Planet users from a feature that they would have been interested in...

So what, now ? Do we want further hurt feelings, more wasted time, more community division (which is precisely what we tried to avoid from the beginning, remember), and less traffic for Cemetech ?


*: the kind of clear "no" that, for instance, elfprince posted above about an open source emulator oriented towards external reuse and contribution being "definitely a different model than we have in mind".

For better or worse, many of Cemetech's official projects are gratis rather than libre. Those that are libre still tend to be cathedral-model, rather than bazaar-model.

If you prefer to develop a new emulator rather than using jsTIfied on the terms that we have proposed, that is entirely your prerogative, and doing so will not cause offense (merely a little confusion as to what exactly you needed to rewrite the HTML for rather than presenting it to your users).


The key difference is that access to the fruits of someone else's labor is a privilege, not a right, regardless of motivation. We are happy to provide you with that access in some forms, but not in other forms, and that is our right, also regardless of motivation. This is not an even playing field from which to argue, because Kerm is the creator.

Everyone in this conversation needs to consider the relative values of a cooperative communal spirit and other personal concerns such as ease of use/modifiability, time investments, and quality control. At this point we've stated our position on those value judgements and offered what we believe to be a fair option. Again, if you aren't content with that option, you're welcome to change your plans accordingly, but please don't attempt to frame this as our having refused to come to the table. We came to the table, discussed the needs of both sides, and offered a solution that we felt was a fair compromise on those scores. It's your turn to respond given the information you now have.

@elfprince13: please avoid interfering in the argument, you apparently won't bring anything good with your arguments.





You should apparently reread what we asked for.
We didn't request any single line of code from you.

You decided on yourself to develop some dirty integration way we never asked for.


But if you want to play it like this:
- we've promised you to link/credit Cemetech, that was not enough
- we've promised you to not host your code, this was not enoush

To make things short, we've promised you everything, and this is still not enough.




I'm not complaining about having to wait.

I'm complaining about have to wait for months, for something that finally doesn't answer to the initial request and makes everything much more complicated.

I would greatly have preferred you to say frankly 'no' to the initial request from the beginning, instead of asking us to wait and to come up with something completly different.


But is that money that you want to accept the single request we ever made to our partner, Cemetech ?

Adriweb and me even (this was unrelated) told you we could send you the TI-84 Plus Orion we got from TI.

As far as I know, we are also partially responsible for your current partnership with TI and we didn't ask for money.




I won't answer more publicly to your post, as you seem to have misunderstood various things.
Don't read between lines, as english is a foreign language for me.

If I did hurt you, I'd like to apologize for this.
And you should apologize too, after mentionning publicly things I even didn't write.

I'll read one more post in this topic, that will be all.



This is a communication problem.

We didn't get a 'no' from you.
We got a 'wait'.
And we did wait to promote the best and to offer the best to our users, although we already had an emulator ready for months.

So after waiting for months, getting such a dirty integration way is just insulting, as it complies in no way with our initial request.



So KermM after everything we did for Cemetech in years, what's your final reply to the only thing we've ever asked to our Cemetech partner in years ?

Since there is either a language barrier or willful miscomprehension, I will clarify this quote from myself: To be clear, I'm not asking for money. None of our sites make money, and paying money for calculator programs or tools is antithetical to what the community stands for. However, trying to force a community leader to work harder for you because he's not doing what you want him to fast enough, as if he was your employee that you pay to finish X work by Y date, is stunning. I'm hoping the language barrier is making you sound harsher than you intended, critor, but our private PM discussion is more pressuring and guilt trips.

Bottom line: as I agreed in September, you may embed jsTIfied in an iframe wherever you wish on the site, and I will even make the effort to design a system with you to remove all the Cemetech site navigation and box around the emulator when it is embedded in your website. You have a choice of about three interfaces that I have previously (September and November) offered you that will make it easy to load TI-Planet programs onto jsTIfied. I will continue to champion improvements and fixes to make jsTIfied better and faster and support even more models more accurately, and TI-Planet's embedded version will instantly reflect the frontend and backend improvements.

And as you said, I continue to thank you for showing your interest in helping be one of the four constructive forces in the community (Cemetech, Omnimaga, ticalc.org, TI-Planet). It has always been a pleasure to work with you, Lionel, and I always feel respected by you and respect for you in all our dealings, even if we don't always see eye-to-eye.
Yep, you could have indeed done that, but that would have been a pretty scummy thing to do, and the reason I close-source all my stuff in the first place, as you know. You waited patiently until I got time in my busy schedule to make the changes and fixes and new program-loading API that would make jsTIfied work even better here and on TI-Planet, and despite my initial insistence that you link to jsTIfied instead of embed it, I have long since agreed to let you embed it.

To my knowledge, what you were waiting for was me implementing the new API that would make it easier to load programs.

Re-reading my email from September, I see that I accidentally said something ambiguous; perhaps that is the problem: I was basically saying "yes" there, not to wait; the only thing you needed to wait for was bug-fixes and the program-loading API that we spent half that email thread discussing. Feel free to embed the original jsTIfied page whenever you want, and we should quickly work out a way to remove the Cemetech navigation and box from around the emulator itself when it is loaded from TI-Planet.

That is not at all true. You've asked us to link to your TI-84+CSE wiki, you've many times asked us to front-page your news items on Cemetech, among many other things. We do what we can for a partner, but sometimes it's hard to feel like it's an equal partnership.

Elfprince13 is my trusted friend and administrator, and he spoke truly.

---------
A colleague makes a good point: since you are so strongly for making your own interface, what does jsTIfied's interface not offer that you need in your embedded jsTIfied? If they are cool things, most likely I can just implement them here for everyone to use, and then the iframe solution won't be a problem.

No intention to insult your co-admin and friend.
I just feel that he so much wants to defend Cemetech and you, that it won't add anything positive in the argument.





I didn't know about the wiki.

Yes, I asked for some news, but that doesn't mean we got them.
So I'm ignoring everything which didn't get accepted.

Yes, I did ask for a contest news, one time, and I did get it.
But it was hard...

And again, making it so hard was insulting for me, after:
- waiting for the end of the Cemetech contest before launching our contest
- newsing about the Cemetech contest




Maybe because we don't come telling you each time we are doing something for you.
I feel hurted reading this.
But I'd like to thank you for being frank. We can't solve problems if we don't speak frankly.

Is it still an inequal partnership after helping you reaching TI and your current partnership, if I'm not mistaken ?

Do you know what ?

Personnally (you may ask other admins), I'm feeling the same thing as you.
Because the rare times we're asking something to you after doing much without telling you, we don't get what we asked for.



So, if you're ok to speak truly, I can stay on the topic a little longer.

* We have a clickable Cemetech banner which is shown on every php page (left column). From your side, the TI-Planet link is quite hidden.
* We relay most Cemetech activity to the french community, and sometimes on Omnimaga (projects, achievements and contests). You don't make many news, and so very rarely relay our activity, but I'll admit that it might be because it's mainly TI-Nspire activity (but not totally).
* We relay our 'small' z80 activity on Cemetech each time we have something for you and have the time to translate. (like we did with the TI-84 Plus Orion)

Some members of the french TI community are on Cemetech. Not as much as on Omnimaga, but it's still a good thing.


So what are you expecting from a partnership with us ?
What is it that is not equal in the current situation ?

Is it just that what we are not making what you'd like us to do ?
Or is it that we don't inform you each time we think we just did something for you ?
(we expected to be trusted and didn't think we had to spam you each time we linked/newsed about Cemetech)


Again, it seems to be some communication and understanding problem.


Regards.

You're airing a huge number of problems which, if they are in fact problems, should be discussed privately, and not aired in front of members and users. We are more than happy to discuss disagreements about our site governance privately, as we have indeed done over IRC and emails in the past. One of the issues is that (as you say), you focus more on the TI-Nspire, and another is that we have a much higher threshold for what we news than you (for example, we would likely not frontpage information about new TI-Connect versions unless they added ground-breaking features). If you're still upset at the lack of visibility you feel TI-Planet has here, feel free to take it up with us privately.

I believe you overlooked this more on-topic question:

I think that in the future, when two websites in the community becomes partners/affiliates, there needs to be some discussion at first between the two parties to ensure that both are creating the type of affiliation they expected, instate any kind of policies if applicable and other terms. If one side is affiliating for banner exchange purposes (the most common type of affiliation in the TI community) but the other is affiliating for more collaboration between admins, then it can cause problems in certain situations and it's the 2nd time such partnership confusion occurs in the TI community within a month span >.<.

Yeah, I know. I think it's especially important to make sure that (for example) third-party news posts and content don't overwhelm the site's own content, as it sometimes seems has happened at Omnimaga. That's one of the reasons we are so extremely selective about what we decide to post on our front page.

But we're still off-topic of the actual question, which is what extra interface items critor feels are missing from jsTIfied.

OK, so I open up jsTIfied (CSE) to take a screen shot and I open up the program menu. I noticed a program on there that I didn't install, and it used lowercase letters for its name. I thought it was weird, so I went to the edit screen and I saw that it included a Doors header. I closed out of the editor so I could run the program in Doors, and I get this operating error:


What happened?

Do you have any matching names in your SourceCoder projects? You can "install" programs from SoureCoder over to jsTIfied with a click of a button.

All of the programs that I wanted on there was there, but I've never heard of that mystery program before. Also, as I was getting on jsTIfied today this also happened:

What OS, browser, and browser version are you using? Was it like that when you first reopened jsTIfied, or did you have to do something to make that happen?

Windows XP, Chrome, and the newest version of Chrome (whatever that is). It started glitching when I went to the history, so I had to turn it off. When I turned it back on, it was still glitching, but the colors were now inverted.

Feature request: Numpad numbers should map to the numbers on the calc.

Ohhh, you went back in the calculator's history, now it makes sense. I'm aware of that bug, but I've never been able to track it down. It seems that the TI-OS is expecting something that jsTIfied doesn't do for it, and I haven't narrowed down what that is.

I agree! I just tried, though, and in both Firefox and Opera (according to this tool, the numkey numbers are indistinguishable from the regular number keys in Javascript. If this is not the case on your computer + OS + browser combination, please let me know what keycodes you get.

That explains the bug, but what about that program?

this one is giving me different codes on all my browsers.

And for me too! I tried implementing those codes, though, and it doesn't do much of anything in jsTIfied for my keyboard's number pad. Does it for you?

Apparently this isn't just a jsTIfied problem, it seems to be happening on the hardware, making me think it is a Doors or TI Connect issue. It happens after I reinstall my program, PvP Craft, to my calculator and immediately try to run it. It clears the screen and after a few seconds, exits the program. If I try to run it again, I get an archived error, and the calculator crashes, clearing the RAM. This time, I didn't try to run in again, but instead I went into Doors to see if the homerun feature is still enabled. I found the mystery program, and it has the name "dcsasmex" and seems to be the exact copy as my other program, besides the name.

Edit:
I just tried running the program through Doors, and it worked fine, until it got an invalid dimension error. I selected Go To, and it went back to Doors, and the program was deleted.

Per chance, was PvP Craft archived when you ran it? I assume it was, because that program is the RAM copy of your Archived program. And it did what it was designed to do, keep your program through a RAM Reset. So the fact that a copy of your program was made, meant that this program would be deleted in the event of a RAM reset instead of the original.

Though, I am perplexed by the "asm" part of the name since your program was in TI-BASIC...