Lojban!

[shkaboinka]

I was wondering if anybody here has heard of or has any opinions of Lojban? (If the site is down, see wiki) I discovered it from an xkcd comic (as I did with minecraft).

Lojban is a language constructed by linguists from around the globe as an experiment/attempt to create a language which does not limit ones form of expression by removing the restrictions that natural languages impose (e.g. some concepts are better expressed in one language over another). Lojban is designed to have unambiguous grammar. Every letter makes one and only one sound EVER, so the writing and speaking is trivial. Words only have one form, and things like tense, plurality, etc. are their own tiny words.

I highly recommend at least giving it a look, as it's design is incredibly logical; it's like speaking a programming language! However, you have to understand that it is NOT formatted like a natural language, because the grammar is extremely different from that of a natural language (it's more like LISP & XML). This is because statements/claims/etc. are abstracted out into a certain pattern of expression which allows relationships, claims, actions, etc. to be stated in a very direct manner. MOST of learning the language is understanding this grammar. For this reason, it may seem overly complex at first because this is not present in natural languages; but it is quicker and easier to learn than any natural language because once you learn the grammar, you know it, and that's that!

Demonstration:
Lojbanic words do not fit into "parts of speech" (nouns, verbs, etc.), but rather into predicate-claims (brivla) and grammatical-structure words (cmavo). For example, the word "tavla" does not simply mean "talk", but rather it makes a claim that there is a talker, a listener, a topic, and a language used, and the relationship between these is called "tavla":

x1 tavla x2 x3 x4 = x1 talks to x2 about x3 in language x4.
x1 klama x2 ... = x1 comes/goes to x2 from x3 via route x4 using means/vehicle x5

When one brivla is used to fill a position of another brivla, the x1 place is what is meant. Here are examples ("le" = "the" and denotes a position-filler; "cu" denotes the relation; "se" is like "cu", but swaps x1 and x2):

le tavla cu klama = the talker goes; the talker is a goer
le klama cu tavla = the one going talks; the goer is a talker
le tavla se klama = the talker is gone to; the talker is a distination
le se tavla cu klama = the one talked to (the listener) goes
le se klama cu tavla = the one gone to (the destination) talks

And you can fill in more x-places ("le tavla cu klama mi" = the talker goes to me) or skip them ("mi cu tavla fo ta" = I talk about that[ta]). There are also timy words (cmavo) that can be inserted to denote emotion/intention, tense, anstractions, etc. One thing I love about it is that, for many cmavo, the alphabetical order of letters denote relative positions (e.g. se, te, ve, xe = swap the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th position with the first; For numbers, pa, re, ci, vo, mu = 1,2,3,4,5; etc.) The spelling of words actually MEANS logical things!

Why learn it?..:
Well, it's definitely not anything like a natural language; and the odds of finding someone else who speaks it are negligible. However, it's incredibly mind opening, and has allowed me to think about language and expression in ways I never was able to before. The forms of expression for MANY many languages can be reflected in lojban; whereas the same is not true from natural language to natural language. Aspects of expression are all abstracted into clear forms that natural languages just don't offer ... in short, it's incredibly stimulating and rewarding to learn just in and of itself. It's NOT some nerdy "made up language" (there is a difference; Esperanto is another constructed language which is actually spoken in Europe as an international language, and is an official language of the European Union ... but it's like someone threw the European languages in a blender. Lojban is culturally neutral and promotes free forms of expression).

...Questions? Opinions? Comments? ... After going from curious to intrigued, I was surprised to find myself making my interest in a constructed language so real as to break down and buy the official book ... but I have read it a couple times, and I am itching for some discussion or to promote the language

[seana11]

Frick! I live 10 minutes from their headquarters and have been within 1000 feet of them. This seemed pretty interesting in the first place, but living this close makes it pretty much impossible not to try it. This seems to be a very cool opportunity.
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[DShiznit]

This sounds like the perfect "future language" for science-fiction authors.

[eyeonus]

coi ro do

If you're really interested, we jbopre have a few different socialization options.

For example, we have a few IRC channels on Freenode.net, the main one being #lojban.

And we have quite a few Google Groups, such as
Lojban Beginners (The best place to ask questions after IRC)
and
Lojban (Where all the technical discussion happens)
(There's more, but I'm not going to list them all- many of them are for non-English speakers, and they're all listed on lojban.org)

Also, there's jbotcan.org, which has most of it's activity in Lojban.

Anyway, we love meeting new people interested in becoming nintadni be la.lojban., come introduce yourself.

ko binxo.e'o lo cmima be lo jbopre

mu'o mi'e.aionys.

(Note: Everything in this color, except in this note, is a link to the English translation.)

[eyeonus]

[qazz42]

eyeonus, try not to double post, please. wait 24 hours before making a second consecutive post in a topic, or for someone else to psot
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[eyeonus]

Sorry. Next time I'll push the edit button.

[qazz42]

[shkaboinka]

Ah thanks; I feel slightly embarrassed for leaving out the {cu}

[eyeonus]

No need, friend. I'd be lying if I said that wasn't a common error nintadni made. In Lojban, as in life, it doesn't matter if you make mistakes. What matters is if you learn from them.

[KermMartian]

I must say that your posts, Eyeonus, and this page break my brain, while also making me very curious to pursue this further when I have some free time. Let me also welcome you to Cemetech and request that you Introduce Yourself when you get a chance?
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[shkaboinka]

I cannot help but suspect that there is an alarm that goes off when something on the web uses the word "Lojban" (To be fair though, this thread comes up when you google the words lojban xkcd constructed)

[eyeonus]

[shkaboinka]

[eyeonus]

[Ashbad]

I looked into this more, and it does seem very interesting. I like the more LISP-like language, over the more complex English, and to an extent French languages. And, like 42, I live prett close to their organization, so maybe after looking into this more I might take a trip by there
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-Ashbad

[shkaboinka]

*Bump*

I highly recommend buying the book, "The Complete Lojban Language". Even if for nothing else, I read and re-read it, and it's VERY intellectually stimulating! ... It causes me to look at language, thought, and expression in different ways. I recognize semantics and see right through the bizarre-ity of idioms; and the way word conjugations work (and sometimes suddenly strike me as odd, when I wouldn't have been able to think that way before)

...Plus, I actually think it's very fun to speak, and surprisingly easy to learn

If you are not ready to dive into the full book, then you should consider "What is Lojban", which is more of an introduction and "sampler" of it all. I started here, and that made me HAVE to get the CLL (and I'll bet it will suck you in too)! HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!! ...Also, it's a good smallish book to hand anyone with questions

[calcdude84se]

And if you aren't willing/able to buy the books, you can find them online at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Books
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People think computers will keep them from making mistakes. They're wrong. With computers you make mistakes faster.
-Adam Osborne