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Anakclusmos
Expert
Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 681
Location: The 5th Dimension
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 Posted: 23 Apr 2012 07:26:54 pm Post subject: |
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| technomonkey76 wrote: | | Anakclusmos wrote: | | Same sex marriage has everything to do with religious and personal beliefs! Saying not to bring those into view makes the entire discussion one sided! |
Religious beliefs: No, because, once again, churches are not the only place to offer marriage.
Personal beliefs: Only of the individuals who desire marriage. Your personal beliefs on something don't force a change upon others. If I were to think that education is immoral, it doesn't keep others from getting an education.
These are not brought into play because they change on a per-person basis. However, I do believe that you are quite correct that a priest should be able to deny marriage under freedom of religion, but only so long as there is another way for the couple to be easily wed. |
*facepalm*
Religion doesn't stop when you walk out the church doors! It's a part of people's lives. It's everything they believe in.
YOU KNOW WHAT? FORGET IT. Trying to explain religion to a bunch of atheists is like trying to define the 4th dimension.
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2012 07:26:59 pm Post subject: |
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Anak, allowing same sex couples to marry under something like a Justice of Peace is what we are discussing, not a church's ability to give out marriages. We already established that in no way should a church not give a marriage to people they don't want to, but that does not mean that a couple should not be allowed to get married through a irreligious, and totally legal, mean.
| Quote: | | YOU KNOW WHAT? FORGET IT. Trying to explain religion to a bunch of atheists is like trying to define the 4th dimension. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional_space
Also, assuming that all pro-gay marriage people are atheists is, once again, like saying all muslims are terrorists.
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jwalker
Advanced Newbie
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 69
Location: Its cold out side
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2012 07:37:43 pm Post subject: |
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What he means is there are a lot of athiest on this forum.
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TheStorm
NOU!
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 2375
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2012 07:41:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Anakclusmos wrote: | | technomonkey76 wrote: | | Anakclusmos wrote: | | Same sex marriage has everything to do with religious and personal beliefs! Saying not to bring those into view makes the entire discussion one sided! |
Religious beliefs: No, because, once again, churches are not the only place to offer marriage.
Personal beliefs: Only of the individuals who desire marriage. Your personal beliefs on something don't force a change upon others. If I were to think that education is immoral, it doesn't keep others from getting an education.
These are not brought into play because they change on a per-person basis. However, I do believe that you are quite correct that a priest should be able to deny marriage under freedom of religion, but only so long as there is another way for the couple to be easily wed. |
*facepalm*
Religion doesn't stop when you walk out the church doors! It's a part of people's lives. It's everything they believe in.
YOU KNOW WHAT? FORGET IT. Trying to explain religion to a bunch of atheists is like trying to define the 4th dimension. |
I can tell you right now that I know multiple people in this conversation are not atheist, and I personally am rather insulted that you claim otherwise. Just because our beliefs differ from yours and our interpretation of biblical texts differ does not mean we are not "God Fearing Christians" to put it in terms you'd understand.
If you have a problem with the term Marrage then fine, define them all as civil unions or something but they deserve all the same rights a hetero couple does and there is nothing you can say that would mean otherwise. "love thy neighbor" there is nothing in there that says they have to share your viewpoint.
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"Always code as if the person who will maintain your code is a maniac serial killer that knows where you live" -Unknown
"If you've done something right no one will know that you've done anything at all" -Futurama
"Have a nice day, or not, the choice is yours." Tom Steiner
<Michael_V> or create a Borg collective and call it The 83+
<Michael_V> Lower your slide cases and prepare to be silent linked. Memory clears are futile. |
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technomonkey76
Advanced Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2009
Posts: 291
Location: Inside your computer
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2012 07:50:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Anakclusmos wrote: |
*facepalm*
Religion doesn't stop when you walk out the church doors! It's a part of people's lives. It's everything they believe in.
YOU KNOW WHAT? FORGET IT. Trying to explain religion to a bunch of atheists is like trying to define the 4th dimension. |
It is a part of people's lives. I understand that. However, not everybody believes in the same things. Freedom of religion should stop LGBT marriage from being prohibited by religious groups because of their beliefs. Those who believe it should not be permitted should be able to enforce their belief, but only to a certain extent. Religion having control over what occurs should be restricted to the confines of a place of worship. Inside of it, people gather to share in their religion. Outside of it, people all have different beliefs, and no one religion should influence the affairs of outside actions.
TL;DR:
I was not arguing that churches are the only place where religion has meaning. I understand perfectly well that religion plays a large role in lives, inside and outside of church. However, outside of that church, different opinions exist, and no one belief should trump another. If a LGBT couple wishes to be wed by a Justice of the Peace, a religious group should have no influence over the proceedings.
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elfprince13
OVER NINE THOUSAND!
Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 10248
Location: A galaxy far far away......
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2012 08:16:02 pm Post subject: |
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| technomonkey76 wrote: |
These are not brought into play because they change on a per-person basis. However, I do believe that you are quite correct that a priest should be able to deny marriage under freedom of religion, but only so long as there is another way for the couple to be easily wed. |
Which is again why civil unions should be separated from weddings.
| Anakclusmos wrote: | | YOU KNOW WHAT? FORGET IT. Trying to explain religion to a bunch of atheists is like trying to define the 4th dimension. |
Actually, n-dimensional spaces aren't really that hard to explain. Neither is religion.
| TheStorm wrote: |
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This is going on my Facebook.
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StickFigure Graphic Productions || VSHI: Vermont Sustainable Heating Initiative
 
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DShiznit
Guru-in-Training
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 3690
Location: The 24th Century
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:30:25 pm Post subject: |
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| TheStorm wrote: | |
This might be the best religion-related image macro I've ever seen, thank you.
To add to the discussion, why is this assumption made that gays can't be spiritual and be married in a church? I go to a church with a very spiritual and very gay tenor. My church would have no problem marrying him, as would be the case with quite a few protestant denominations of Christianity. Is a church suddenly not Christian because they don't follow the same classical interpretation of the bible that you do? |
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blue_bear_94
Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2012
Posts: 163
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:32:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DShiznit wrote: | | Is a church suddenly not Christian because they don't follow the same classical interpretation of the bible that you do? |
If it diverges too far from the classical interpretation, then yes, the Church would effectively be un-Christian. |
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:42:57 pm Post subject: |
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In the bible, by the way, there is no ban on gay marriage itself, so there would be no reason to exclude a church that gives out gay marriages from Christendom. Now, if the church started teaching about how Allah is the one true God, or something, then their status as a Christian church might be in danger 
Sure in the old testament there is mention about how gay sex is a sin, but if we were to listen to the old testament then we would also be passing laws banning tattoos and associating women on their period (all from Leviticus, I think.)
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Ashbad
I am governor Jerry Brown
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 2423
Location: There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:44:17 pm Post subject: |
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| blue_bear_94 wrote: | | DShiznit wrote: | | Is a church suddenly not Christian because they don't follow the same classical interpretation of the bible that you do? |
If it diverges too far from the classical interpretation, then yes, the Church would effectively be un-Christian. |
Disagreed. There are many churches that I feel diverge significantly away from the bible's meaning as interpreted by the early Catholic and Orthodox churches, (some of them probably further than the completely separate religion of Islam), yet they're still considered christian.
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qazz42
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DShiznit
Guru-in-Training
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 3690
Location: The 24th Century
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:52:12 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | In the bible, by the way, there is no ban on gay marriage itself, so there would be no reason to exclude a church that gives out gay marriages from Christendom. Now, if the church started teaching about how Allah is the one true God, or something, then their status as a Christian church might be in danger |
One little nitpick: it is actually accepted by many of both faiths that "Allah" and the Christian God are the same deity. In fact, it's technically incorrect to use the word "Allah" in English since it does translate to English literally as the word "God", and most Muslims believe they are praying to the same God as the Christians and Jews. |
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:53:36 pm Post subject: |
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The muslims might think so, but I am sure various chiristians don't :/
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Ashbad
I am governor Jerry Brown
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 2423
Location: There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 03:58:05 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | and even then, I am sure that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have their own divergences from the bible, too. So really, as long as it is the same dieity and the same *basic* rules, I don't see why they should not be considered christian. |
Agreed, but I would like to point out that the Orthodox church (at least, Eastern and Russian) differ only very slightly in most notions. They were the same church until 1054, and even centuries after the split they were almost exactly the same. The only differences have been caused by small cultural traditions that have accumulated over time.
However, Protestantism, for the most part, split off and was radically different (in comparison, at least to the great schism) to boot. However, all of the major split-offs were still very able to be called Christian, in fact many of them tried to follow the Bible word-for-word, whereas the Catholic and Orthodox churches have interpreted it with traditions carried through their histories over time in mind.
| Quote: | | there was another article I saw that showed that the CoE might start accepting and allowing gay marriage, any thoughts? |
I've heard that it's actually driving a lot of people who are part of the CoE out of the church. In fact, I believe the Catholic church has made an "Anglican order" of priests, so that the diverging CoE members have somewhere to go that has essentially the same beliefs of the Anglican church, minus the homosexual marriage. I think that's an honorable thing (from the eyes of a religious), since that way those who want to follow the CoE can stay religious, and the ones protesting that change can move to the Catholic order where that one detail is removed from the picture, can stay religious. Everyone in the picture can be happy that way.
| qazz42 wrote: | | The muslims might think so, but I am sure various chiristians don't :/ |
I've heard many Muslims say they think Christianity and Islam are very alike because they both believe in the Father of the holy trinity being a full deity. However, the Islams believe Jesus was just another prophet, not the son of God (and therefore a full part of the Christian trinity of God), which is a huge difference in the eyes of Christians.
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DShiznit
Guru-in-Training
Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 3690
Location: The 24th Century
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 04:00:56 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | The muslims might think so, but I am sure various chiristians don't :/ |
The kind that put up misspelled signs at tea-parties asking for the president's birth certificate would not believe it, but I would hope for the sake of my faith that anyone who truly understands the religion would at least accept that we're all worshiping the same God, even if that person is predisposed to believe his form of worship is superior to the other. |
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 04:09:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ashbad, yup, and most of these splits happened not even mainly due to different views, but because of power and corruption issues. The protestants were sick of the church's silly indulgences, the great schism happened due to a power struggle between a pope and an archbishop... and then the wars... so many wars over which version of the christian religion is more "correct"...
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Ashbad
I am governor Jerry Brown
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 2423
Location: There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 04:28:18 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | The great schism happened due to a power struggle between a pope and an archbishop... and then the wars... so many wars over which version of the christian religion is more "correct"... |
s/Archbishop/Holy Patriach of Greece/, just because I like being picky for exact terminology  I wouldn't say that there were direct wars between the Catholics and the Orthodox, but I believe in the 3rd/4th/5th holy war (one of those three, forgot) the Crusaders sacked Orthodox cities.
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 05:01:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ashbad, ah, noted. I knew I probably had something wrong there >.>
by the way, I am glad we are starting to change your mind about civil unions, at the least. All they really do is just allow the same finantial benefits as married people. In no way do they affect the couple's private life. I mean, it doesn't affect anything else aside from legal benefits, so there really should not be a problem.
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Ashbad
I am governor Jerry Brown
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 2423
Location: There lived a certain man in Russia long ago
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 05:06:00 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | by the way, I am glad we are starting to change your mind about civil unions, at the least. All they really do is just allow the same finantial benefits as married people. In no way do they affect the couple's private life. I mean, it doesn't affect anything else aside from legal benefits, so there really should not be a problem. |
Yes, I'm starting to become more impartial towards civil unions. I don't quite see what's wrong with just them, but then again, I'm not for it, either. I see it as more of a financial set of benefits, and honestly if that goes through I won't argue it.
However, my stance on religious marriage stands still, and will extremely likely remain that way.
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2012 05:08:04 pm Post subject: |
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and that is fine, if a church doesn't want to give a religious marriage, so be it. However, religious beleif should not affect who gets the proper health care and whatnot for joint habituation. I mean, think about it, if a gay couple is having sex and living together, will the civil union somehow intensify that? The civil union is also great for platonic couples, like two friends who live together long term and need such benefits.
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