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elfprince13
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Joined: 23 May 2005
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 Posted: 24 Apr 2012 05:19:28 pm Post subject: |
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| DShiznit wrote: | | To add to the discussion, why is this assumption made that gays can't be spiritual and be married in a church? I go to a church with a very spiritual and very gay tenor. My church would have no problem marrying him, as would be the case with quite a few protestant denominations of Christianity. |
The assumption is that there are many churches which would not feel comfortable marrying (or blessing the marriage of) a gay couple.
| DShiznit wrote: | | Is a church suddenly not Christian because they don't follow the same classical interpretation of the bible that you do? |
| Ashbad wrote: | | Disagreed. There are many churches that I feel diverge significantly away from the bible's meaning as interpreted by the early Catholic and Orthodox churches, (some of them probably further than the completely separate religion of Islam), yet they're still considered christian. |
Most Christians would not consider Mormonism to be Christianity (though Mormons disagree), so yes, there is a tipping point. The fundamental test would be whether they accept the doctrine of salvation through Jesus's death & resurrection, and that Jesus is God-incarnate; the trinitarian nature of God, and the inspiration of scripture are also usually tacked on there.
Of course interpretations of what it means for Jesus to be God incarnate, and the mechanism of salvation through Jesus are where it gets fuzzy. The first of those is the major (and what the trinity entails) are the big points of departure of Mormonism from Christian orthodoxy. Some protestant Christians will go so far as to reject any church that views the sacraments as required for salvation, on the grounds that it doesn't fit with a grace-based theology.
| qazz42 wrote: | | The muslims might think so, but I am sure various chiristians don't :/ |
Depends on which Christians. The dispute has some merits (if your descriptions of God are too different, they probably aren't the same thing, even if you agree that only one God exists), as well as some sillinesses (Allah really is just the Arabic word for God, and is shared by most Arabic-speaking Christians). This is getting off-topic though.
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Compynerd255
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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| Posted: 25 Apr 2012 09:29:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm going to throw in my own two (or more) cents on this issue. I've only read the recent posts, but I'm not necessarily going to expound on them. (Please bear with me, this post is pretty long).
In summary, I think that same sex marriage is wrong, because it circumvents the main purposes of marriage in the first place.
First, I'd like to point out that almost all supporters of same sex marriage make an assumption without realizing it: They assume that sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression, because they are uncontrollable. The truth is, they're not - a homosexual can control himself just as much as a heterosexual can.
I also believe that while there are some people that are legitimately born homosexual, most of that community is actually homosexual because of outside factors. For example, if a young boy is sexually abused by his father (which actually happens to a staggeringly high 1 in 7 boys), his perception of sex itself might be warped when he is older. Also, children who grow up around gay couples might convince themselves they are gay as well, which is why I also oppose gay couples adopting children.
Additionally, I also believe in a God who is fair and will make everything just and right in the afterlife. Thus, I believe that people who acquired homosexual tendencies during this life will lose them in the eternities, and God will be fair to them and give them the opportunity for marriage that they didn't have on Earth. And then those homosexual couples who have suddenly lost those tendencies will sit there and think, "Oh, crap, what have we done with our lives?"
Now, I don't think that gay people are evil - they're people just like heterosexual people are, just with different views and impulses. I have my own heterosexual impulses, and I would be in just as much trouble for acting on them as a homosexual person would for theirs.
The other reason for opposite sex marriage besides having children is that men and women are incomplete without one another, and there are many essential things that people can only learn by being legally and emotionally bound to someone of the opposite sex. For example, my best friend is a girl, and I have learned more about myself and how to live through her than any guy my age could ever hope to teach me. And that's just a taste of what marriage can provide.
Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone.
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souvik1997
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Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 25 Apr 2012 10:03:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I also believe that while there are some people that are legitimately born homosexual, most of that community is actually homosexual because of outside factors. |
| Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation) wrote: | | The prevailing view is that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Some believe that sexual orientation is established at conception, therefore not a choice.[90] That is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual. There is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that early childhood experiences, parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. |
| Quote: | | Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone. |
The church cannot lose its non-profit status by refusing same-sex marriage if a law permitting same-sex marriage was passed. The only way it could lose its status is if it generates too much income unrelated to the exempt function of the organization, participates in substantial lobbying, serves a private interest, participating in political activity, stops doing the exempt activity, or does not report its information every year. See this: http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml
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DShiznit
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| Posted: 25 Apr 2012 10:13:17 am Post subject: |
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| souvik1997 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone. |
The church cannot lose its non-profit status by refusing same-sex marriage if a law permitting same-sex marriage was passed. The only way it could lose its status is if it generates too much income unrelated to the exempt function of the organization, participates in substantial lobbying, serves a private interest, participating in political activity, stops doing the exempt activity, or does not report its information every year. See this: http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml |
You're misunderstanding how legal marriage works Compynerd255. Churches do not provide legally binding marriage certificates, that's the state's job. The Church takes care of the spiritual bond of matrimony, the nature and preconditions of which vary from church to church. Changing who the state will grant marriage licenses to has absolutely no effect on who the church chooses to bond through it's rituals. In fact, it will only legally back the gay-marriages some churches are already performing, and thus opposing that change in itself infringes on their freedom of religion. |
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 25 Apr 2012 05:02:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | They assume that sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression, because they are uncontrollable. The truth is, they're not - a homosexual can control himself just as much as a heterosexual can. |
Wait, how does supporting same sex marriage all of a sudden become "sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression"?
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elfprince13
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| Posted: 25 Apr 2012 05:48:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DShiznit wrote: | | You're misunderstanding how legal marriage works Compynerd255. Churches do not provide legally binding marriage certificates, that's the state's job. |
Worth pointing out that many religious leaders are given the authority, by state officials, to perform a civil marriage for people who only want one ceremony.
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Compynerd255
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 09:29:38 am Post subject: |
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| DShiznit wrote: | | souvik1997 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone. |
The church cannot lose its non-profit status by refusing same-sex marriage if a law permitting same-sex marriage was passed. The only way it could lose its status is if it generates too much income unrelated to the exempt function of the organization, participates in substantial lobbying, serves a private interest, participating in political activity, stops doing the exempt activity, or does not report its information every year. See this: http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml |
You're misunderstanding how legal marriage works Compynerd255. Churches do not provide legally binding marriage certificates, that's the state's job. The Church takes care of the spiritual bond of matrimony, the nature and preconditions of which vary from church to church. Changing who the state will grant marriage licenses to has absolutely no effect on who the church chooses to bond through it's rituals. In fact, it will only legally back the gay-marriages some churches are already performing, and thus opposing that change in itself infringes on their freedom of religion. |
Okay, I just realized that I remembered this whole fact incorrectly. A church can't lose its nonprofit tax status if it denies a gay couple a marriage, but it can lose its status if it gets sued. And a church might get sued for denying a gay marriage if people have a bone to pick with that church. The church I'm a part of is especially at risk of this because one of its doctrines is that it has power to perform marriages that last beyond death. While a civil, "till death do you part" marriage can be offered pretty much anywhere, if the church denies this kind of marriage to a gay couple (which it will), the couple could sue the church based on denying freedom of worship.
| qazz42 wrote: |
| Compynerd255 wrote: |
They assume that sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression, because they are uncontrollable. The truth is, they're not - a homosexual can control himself just as much as a heterosexual can.
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Wait, how does supporting same sex marriage all of a sudden become "sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression"?
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I mean this in the sense that people think "That's just how they are, they can't help it, so just let 'em have it" which is not very correct or smart because that assumes that people don't have any willpower.
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merthsoft
File Archiver
Joined: 09 May 2010
Posts: 2735
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 09:35:49 am Post subject: |
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| Compynerd255 wrote: | | DShiznit wrote: | | souvik1997 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone. |
The church cannot lose its non-profit status by refusing same-sex marriage if a law permitting same-sex marriage was passed. The only way it could lose its status is if it generates too much income unrelated to the exempt function of the organization, participates in substantial lobbying, serves a private interest, participating in political activity, stops doing the exempt activity, or does not report its information every year. See this: http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml |
You're misunderstanding how legal marriage works Compynerd255. Churches do not provide legally binding marriage certificates, that's the state's job. The Church takes care of the spiritual bond of matrimony, the nature and preconditions of which vary from church to church. Changing who the state will grant marriage licenses to has absolutely no effect on who the church chooses to bond through it's rituals. In fact, it will only legally back the gay-marriages some churches are already performing, and thus opposing that change in itself infringes on their freedom of religion. |
Okay, I just realized that I remembered this whole fact incorrectly. A church can't lose its nonprofit tax status if it denies a gay couple a marriage, but it can lose its status if it gets sued. And a church might get sued for denying a gay marriage if people have a bone to pick with that church. The church I'm a part of is especially at risk of this because one of its doctrines is that it has power to perform marriages that last beyond death. While a civil, "till death do you part" marriage can be offered pretty much anywhere, if the church denies this kind of marriage to a gay couple (which it will), the couple could sue the church based on denying freedom of worship. |
My church offers that too, and it'll let gay people get married. They can just come to me if your church won't let them.
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DShiznit
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 12:02:21 pm Post subject: |
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| merthsoft wrote: | | Compynerd255 wrote: | | DShiznit wrote: | | souvik1997 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Now, from the perspective of church marriage versus government marriage: I am opposed to allowing the government to allow same sex marriages as well, because if a church refuses to provide legal marriages (which would include gay marriage if a law was passed), the church could lose its non-profit status, which would be bad for everyone. |
The church cannot lose its non-profit status by refusing same-sex marriage if a law permitting same-sex marriage was passed. The only way it could lose its status is if it generates too much income unrelated to the exempt function of the organization, participates in substantial lobbying, serves a private interest, participating in political activity, stops doing the exempt activity, or does not report its information every year. See this: http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/How_to_Lose_Your_Tax_Exempt_Status.shtml |
You're misunderstanding how legal marriage works Compynerd255. Churches do not provide legally binding marriage certificates, that's the state's job. The Church takes care of the spiritual bond of matrimony, the nature and preconditions of which vary from church to church. Changing who the state will grant marriage licenses to has absolutely no effect on who the church chooses to bond through it's rituals. In fact, it will only legally back the gay-marriages some churches are already performing, and thus opposing that change in itself infringes on their freedom of religion. |
Okay, I just realized that I remembered this whole fact incorrectly. A church can't lose its nonprofit tax status if it denies a gay couple a marriage, but it can lose its status if it gets sued. And a church might get sued for denying a gay marriage if people have a bone to pick with that church. The church I'm a part of is especially at risk of this because one of its doctrines is that it has power to perform marriages that last beyond death. While a civil, "till death do you part" marriage can be offered pretty much anywhere, if the church denies this kind of marriage to a gay couple (which it will), the couple could sue the church based on denying freedom of worship. |
My church offers that too, and it'll let gay people get married. They can just come to me if your church won't let them. |
Same here. Trying to get a church that does not believe in it to marry you is just plain stupid. To expect a church that doesn't believe in it to grant you a spiritual bond is insane. No court would side against the church on that. Especially since churches have lawyers and advocates and PACs too. |
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qazz42
Vampire Killer
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Posts: 4177
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 01:37:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I mean this in the sense that people think "That's just how they are, they can't help it, so just let 'em have it" which is not very correct or smart because that assumes that people don't have any willpower. |
Gay people don't choose to be gay. It is not a matter of having enough willpower to "control it" or however you think it works. That *IS* just how they are.... so yeah, we should just "let 'em have it"
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Compynerd255
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 06:23:36 pm Post subject: |
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It is not "how they are", Qazz. It is not. I can't put it any nicer than that. I can testify most emphatically that just like any other temptation, feelings of homosexuality can be overcome by the human mind.
When a person drinks, it is not "how he is". He can stop drinking start a new, happier life with wisdom and full control of oneself.
When a person lies, it is not "how he is". He can stop lying and start a new, happier life with simplicity and trust.
When a person gossips, it his not "how he is". He can stop gossiping and start a new, happier life of good thoughts toward others.
When a person steals, it is not "how he is". He can stop stealing and start a new, happier life of hard work and self-sufficiency.
When a person commits adultery, it is not "how he is". He can stop being unfaithful and start a new, happier life of trust and fidelity.
When a person feels depressed, it is not "how he is". He can stop his depression and start a new, happier life of self-esteem and joy.
When a person murders, it is not "how he is". He can stop murdering and start a new, happier life of friendliness and forgiveness.
When a person engages in homosexual activity, it is not "how he is". He can stop his actions and start a new, happier life of true love and understanding of the opposite gender, selflessness as found in the family, and a complete sense of self.
I think that this discussion is of such great concern to people because the answer to it lies in the very nature of humankind. A person's opinion on this issue is dependent on their opinion of family, of love, of free will, and the human soul. And a truth that we all have to accept, no matter what side we take on this issue or any issue, is that bashing one another on the tiniest points is not going to convince anyone of anything. The only way we can make any changes in society is by sharing our own personal convictions, as I have just done.
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souvik1997
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Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 06:34:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Compynerd255 wrote: | It is not "how they are", Qazz. It is not. I can't put it any nicer than that. I can testify most emphatically that just like any other temptation, feelings of homosexuality can be overcome by the human mind.
When a person drinks, it is not "how he is". He can stop drinking start a new, happier life with wisdom and full control of oneself.
When a person lies, it is not "how he is". He can stop lying and start a new, happier life with simplicity and trust.
When a person gossips, it his not "how he is". He can stop gossiping and start a new, happier life of good thoughts toward others.
When a person steals, it is not "how he is". He can stop stealing and start a new, happier life of hard work and self-sufficiency.
When a person commits adultery, it is not "how he is". He can stop being unfaithful and start a new, happier life of trust and fidelity.
When a person feels depressed, it is not "how he is". He can stop his depression and start a new, happier life of self-esteem and joy.
When a person murders, it is not "how he is". He can stop murdering and start a new, happier life of friendliness and forgiveness.
When a person engages in homosexual activity, it is not "how he is". He can stop his actions and start a new, happier life of true love and understanding of the opposite gender, selflessness as found in the family, and a complete sense of self.
I think that this discussion is of such great concern to people because the answer to it lies in the very nature of humankind. A person's opinion on this issue is dependent on their opinion of family, of love, of free will, and the human soul. And a truth that we all have to accept, no matter what side we take on this issue or any issue, is that bashing one another on the tiniest points is not going to convince anyone of anything. The only way we can make any changes in society is by sharing our own personal convictions, as I have just done. |
It seems like you think homosexuality isn't natural, and therefore people who are gay should suppress their feelings and should lead a "new, happier life of true love". Homosexuality is biologically normal among animals, including humans (Wikipedia link). Also, what is it about homosexual love that makes it less "true" than heterosexual love? People who are not heterosexual are unable to change their sexual orientation (read this)
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qazz42
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 06:38:16 pm Post subject: |
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What Souvik said. Also, I'm sorry, but what makes you so sure that homosexuality is just a "temptation" that someone can "stop"? Are you admitting to previous homosexual tendencies? If not, what right do you have to say that homosexuality is unnatural, a choice, a temptation, etc.
Furthermore, people who have tried to suppress their homosexuality, which is a futile attempt as it IS how they are, can lead, either directly or indirectly, to a majority of the other "temptations" you listed. A
ALSO, are you seriously trying to compare attraction to the opposite gender to murder?
FINALLY. I think that points one and, to a lesser extent, three of the list of ten reasons to ban gay marriage apply here
| Quote: | 01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
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shmibs
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 06:52:09 pm Post subject: |
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/me doesn't see why people shouldn't be allowed to marry pets 
it wouldn't have much meaning beyond being symbolic, though, as a pet is not a citizen.
also, Compy, what constitutes "engaging in homosecual activity"? i'd like to be clear about definitions before responding.
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qazz42
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 06:54:15 pm Post subject: |
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I would assume thinking about liking people of the same gender, and, heaven forbid, having physical contact with people of the same gender in a romantic way. 
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Compynerd255
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 10:17:27 pm Post subject: |
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| qazz42 wrote: | | I would assume thinking about liking people of the same gender, and, heaven forbid, having physical contact with people of the same gender in a romantic way. |
I mean the latter. In truth, everyone does the former at least once.
Souvik: I'm not saying that homosexuality isn't natural - it is a natural tendency that some people feel. In fact, everything I put in my spheal up there is a natural tendency. I believe that the best people on earth realize that most natural tendencies don't lead them to good places and suppress them in favor of higher tendencies.
And before we waste a few forum posts pointing this out, I want to say that the natural tendency for heterosexual activity is to use it for selfish exploitation. The "best people" still do it, but for much more selfless reasons.
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qazz42
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2012 10:32:12 pm Post subject: |
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Gay people can stop being gay just as straight people can stop being straight or someone with tourettes can stop having tourettes. Being gay is not something one simply suppresses like lust or anger.
All being gay is is just having a preference, but for the same gender. I still don't get how you think people can just control it and force themselves to be who they are not....
| Quote: | | I mean the latter. In truth, everyone does the former at least once. |
Yeah, if they are bi or gay they will. If you have had such thoughts, that is fine, but don't use yourself as a generalization of the entire human race. I am only saying so because you seem to be talking as though you have first hand personal experience by the way you talk about the matter >.>
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DShiznit
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2012 12:37:40 am Post subject: |
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| Compynerd255 wrote: | | When a person feels depressed, it is not "how he is". He can stop his depression and start a new, happier life of self-esteem and joy. |
Oh wow really? I can just flip a switch and my depression will just magically go away? Awesome, when can I start? |
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Kllrnohj
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2012 02:58:15 am Post subject: |
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| Compynerd255 wrote: | | I believe that the best people on earth realize that most natural tendencies don't lead them to good places and suppress them in favor of higher tendencies. |
Well on that you are simply wrong, completely and totally wrong. Most everything we do is driven almost exclusively by natural tendencies.
| Quote: | | When a person engages in homosexual activity, it is not "how he is". He can stop his actions and start a new, happier life of true love and understanding of the opposite gender, selflessness as found in the family, and a complete sense of self. |
Denying who you are does not make you a happier person - quite the opposite. Ditto for sense of self. And gay couples are completely capable of the selflessness of family - just as much as straight ones are completely capable of destroying their family. Heck, isn't it like 50% of straight marriage ends in divorce? Not exactly a high bar for gays to meet, now is it?
But by reading your posts I get the impression you've never actually *MET* any gay people (at least, none that you are aware of). You are regurgitating garbage that's been shoved down your throat, and worse - you are trying to *force* that trash onto other people.
| Quote: | | In summary, I think that same sex marriage is wrong, because it circumvents the main purposes of marriage in the first place. |
The main purpose of legal marriage is for tax reasons - that's about it. Gays aren't asking for churches to recognize their marriage, they are just asking for the law to recognize their marriage.
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Sarah
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2012 03:47:43 am Post subject: |
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| Compynerd255 wrote: |
First, I'd like to point out that almost all supporters of same sex marriage make an assumption without realizing it: They assume that sexual impulses in any sense should be allowed unfettered expression, because they are uncontrollable. The truth is, they're not - a homosexual can control himself just as much as a heterosexual can. |
Okay, just gonna chime in right here.
Me and my girlfriend have known eachother since preschool. We have been best friends for pretty much the entire time we have known eachother. When we were both 12, we simply started being eachother's girlfriend and have been for 4 years now. I have never loved, and will never love anyone the way I do her. It's not her gender that matters, it's her that does. She's perfect for me and I'm perfect for her. What we have are not 'tendancies'. What we have is undeniable love. And because of people such as you, we can pretty much look forward to never being able to call ourselves married.
Did you know that a gay/lesbian wasn't allowed to see their lover in the hospital until Obama said "GTFO" and that law did? Do you think something like that is fair?
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